A take on BB methodology.

[redwinger02]

What bomber is referencing is the detritus falls out of the rock and lands on the bottom where A. it can be siphoned out or B. with enough flow it is suspended in the water collum to be skimmed out.

 

[SeanT]

...which you would have realized if that chip wasn't blocking your view of the monitor.

 

[Bomber]

Ah, I'm so sorry. Next time I should be more respectful to you while you educate me in the mysteries of gravity.

Which came first, the slam or gravity? LOL

So Mr. marine bio student at Auburn - tell me, how do you run a waste processing plant in a aquarium?

 

[joefish]

greenbean36191

I'll tell you what , If Bomber spells it out for you without making you think then you didn't learn why it works . Why it works makes you let the system work better .

It took me a couple of months and a few threads to get it completly . When I did , I took a leap of faith and went from DSB to BB . What a differece that made , there are pictrures of it all over RC .
The same Experts who claim DSB's work couldn't help me get mine to .

And Yes JBNY has a beautiful tank and he well deserves all the praise I can give him . But do you see all of the equipment he needs to get that DSB to work right .

Sorry just rambling at this point .

 

[joefish]

So Mr. marine bio student at Auburn - tell me, how do you run a waste processing plant in a aquarium?

With a DSB .:lol:

I prefer to move the waste out of the tank and rot else where .

 

[nellahtes]

hello, im currently turning my 125 into a sps only tank ans i want to go BB. what i need to know is what material should i place on the bottom for my live rock to sit on, and is my skimmer good enough? its a asm g-3. what else is needed to make a BB system work well, besides flow and skimming? i hope you dont mind me asking. thanks for any help.

 

[smoknreefrs]

:spin2: :spin2: :spin2: :spin2:

 

[Bomber]

socal1
Start here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=223301&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

You might want to ask about the skimmer in the "equipment forum".

 

[Weatherman]

Unstable?

Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m amazed at the number of experts who state that you have wait for months, or years, to add certain animals to your tank (typically tanks with sand beds). What exactly is happening in your little glass box during that time, which makes it so hostile to delicate life? Why, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s unstable, of course. It takes time for a tank to ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œmatureââ"šÂ¬Ã‚. Sand beds donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t fully ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œmatureââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ for at least six to twelve months. Didnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t you know that?

And, heaven forbid your kalk drip line should ever clog, or the CO2 on your calcium reactor should ever run out without you noticing it for several hours. Your alkalinity would drop like a rock, because all those little critters in the sand bed are busy consuming carbon and oxygen like crazy.

Then, what happens when phosphate starts to show up on your test kits. Got to keep up with the ROWAphos or ZEOvit. Just miss one dose and youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re right back where you started.

Yep. Unstable. Sure. Good description of tanks with sand beds.

 

[greenbean36191]

What problems? The hobby has always had problems and probably always will.]
Nutrient problems and livestock loss. That's that whole reason DSBs came about in the first place.

Of course they are. Some have concrete floors and siphon as needed, some have circulation and skimming that remove it as needed.

I didn't ask how they are now. I asked if the BB tanks of today work the same as they did in the 90's. If they did then why did you say earlier in this thread that they are nothing alike? If they both accomplish the same ends then why would the barebottom tanks of today be more successful long term than the ones of the early 90's that you poked fun at?

Which came first, the slam or gravity? LOL

I never said anything to you until I asked the questions, but if the shoe fits wear it I guess.

So Mr. marine bio student at Auburn - tell me, how do you run a waste processing plant in a aquarium?

One I run BB [GASP!], one I run SSB. Neither has measurable nutrients, both have healthy corals, macroalgae hardly grows in either, and I export as much as I put into both of them.

I'll tell you what , If Bomber spells it out for you without making you think then you didn't learn why it works . Why it works makes you let the system work better.

I understand the sytem and how it works. I wasn't asking for my benefit. I'm trying to show holes in the logic of some people who seem to think that BBs are as miraculous as people thought DSBs were when they were the "in" thing (and no Bomber, that's not aimed at you).

 

[Johnsteph10]

I'd like to see his "data" demonstrating how "unstable" BB tanks are.

IMHO, do what you like. In general, if you don't understand something, don't comment on it - rather ask questions. Too many people think that an "expert" only writes truth and hard data. If that were true, it would be an interesting world.

BB tanks were around in the 1990s. Most didn't do so well long term (as most tanks in the 1990s as well!). Why? What is the difference 10-15 years later? Better salt, better equipment, and most of all a better (though still far from complete) understanding of the husbandry practices required to take care of a closed ecosystem.

In short, BB works. Some are just afraid to admit it because it turns everything they have said about the wonders of having a dirty sandbox in their tank upside down. :lol:

 

[greenbean36191]

What bomber is referencing is the detritus falls out of the rock and lands on the bottom where A. it can be siphoned out or B. with enough flow it is suspended in the water collum to be skimmed out.

Thank you for a straight answer. This is what I was trying to get Bomber to say.

So exactly how long does it take for detritus to start releasing nutrients? Does it stop releasing nutrients if it isn't in a sandbed? Does all of the detritus fall off of the rocks or does some still get trapped inside? What happens to the nutrients from the detritus? Does every bit get taken out by a skimmer or do the rocks still absorb some?

 

[Bomber]

I didn't ask how they are now. I asked if the BB tanks of today work the same as they did in the 90's. If they did then why did you say earlier in this thread that they are nothing alike? If they both accomplish the same ends then why would the barebottom tanks of today be more successful long term than the ones of the early 90's that you poked fun at?

Hobby as opposed to marine labs.

BB tanks "work" the same as they used to. You get the dirt out or they "don't work".

They have "worked" for decades in marine labs, they did "not work" in the hobby mainly because of equipment and hobbyists. At that time hobbyists were actually being told that they were running their tanks too clean 'sterile and that's what was killing their animals.
Not that all these chemicals that they could not test for from that dirty tank was killing them.

They were running 2ft tall, air driven, counter current skimmers and told that they were over skimming, running their tanks too clean and that's what was killing everything. Can you imagine what they would think with some of the skimmers you guys have?

 

[Bomber]

Thank you for a straight answer. This is what I was trying to get Bomber to say.

Layoff me already and just ask. LOL

So exactly how long does it take for detritus to start releasing nutrients?

What do you mean? Bacteria are always leaking if that's what you're thinking. Given time they can create their own environment and speed it up.

Does it stop releasing nutrients if it isn't in a sandbed?

You mean like a filter sock, filter fluff, floating in the water, etc
nope

Does all of the detritus fall off of the rocks or does some still get trapped inside?

Most is actually being produced by the bacteria in the rocks and shed. Nutrients are cycled in and out of the rocks, it doesn't stop.

What happens to the nutrients from the detritus?

A lot of things, what do you mean?

Does every bit get taken out by a skimmer or do the rocks still absorb some?

Don't follow this either. The skimmer will export what's available and in a form that the skimmer can export. What is not in that form, will sit in solution, be grabbed and re-cycled by bacteria/phyto/etc again - eventually it has to go back through a form that the skimmer can export.

 

[greenbean36191]

Thank you for answering my questions. I really do appreciate it. Hopefully you see that his has nothing to do with some hate for BB systems. I have nothing but good to say from my personal experience with a BB tank. I'm just trying to show some of their limitations and that they aren't magical and nutrient free either.

Hobby as opposed to marine labs.

How many of those marine lab tanks have been continuously growing SPS for ten plus years? How many are using closed systems? How many are using artificial seawater? I can point to a few tanks that have been growing SPS for 15 years with sandbeds and no problems, but most also run huge flow through systems. I don't think their success shows a lack of long term effects of using sandbeds.

What do you mean? Bacteria are always leaking if that's what you're thinking. Given time they can create their own environment and speed it up.

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What happens to the nutrients from the detritus?
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A lot of things, what do you mean?

My point is that the second the detritus is produced it starts to be processed. The nutrients go the same place they would go regardless of what type of setup you run: into your water and into organisms feeding on the detritus. Granted you have less decomposing at any one time than if you had a DSB, but some of those nutrients still go back into the rocks.

Most is actually being produced by the bacteria in the rocks and shed. Nutrients are cycled in and out of the rocks, it doesn't stop.

And how is this different than what is going on in the rocks in a DSB or SSB tank? Maybe in your opinion cooking rocks should be done in those types of setups too (this one I really don't know). How is what goes on inside of LR different than what happens inside of a sandbed on a larger scale? Nutrients go in and nutrients come out. All you can do is control the nutrients you put in, and periodically try to take nutrients out (ie. cooking the rock or siphoning/removing the sandbed).

The skimmer will export what's available and in a form that the skimmer can export. What is not in that form, will sit in solution, be grabbed and re-cycled by bacteria/phyto/etc again - eventually it has to go back through a form that the skimmer can export.

Again how is this different than in any other type of system?

 

[FastFish720]

I hope I'm right in saying this...BB is different than a sandbed because you are relying on immediate exportation instead of delayed. With BB detritus shouldn't settle and it can be removed via: siphoning, skimmer, filter socks etc. A sandbed may be though as a temporary holding area for the detritus until it is exported. Yet the sandbed does breakdown some of the detritus.

 

[greenbean36191]

Yes, I understand that BBs advantage is that for the most part you get the detritus out before it rots. The biggest thing I'm trying to point out is that you still have sinks in the tank and that your aren't getting everything out, therefore you can't run the tank indefinitely.

 

[redwinger02]

Jake you hit it on the head.

 

[FastFish720]

What can't a BB system get out that a DSB can?

 

[Bomber]

I'm just trying to show some of their limitations and that they aren't magical and nutrient free either

bean, only the DSB experts say that these systems are too sterile or too clean or magical and nutrient free. That's the only place you could have heard that.
Everyone else knows better.

How many of those marine lab tanks have been continuously growing SPS for ten plus years? How many are using closed systems? How many are using artificial seawater? I can point to a few tanks that have been growing SPS for 15 years with sandbeds and no problems, but most also run huge flow through systems. I don't think their success shows a lack of long term effects of using sandbeds.

You run a lot of breathless sentences together and that makes it hard to answer you. slow down

Our systems have been up and running since the late 50's. Sometimes they are closed, sometimes they get a water change. Open or closed systems really have nothing to do with it. It does not matter if you get detritus out by skimming or siphoning with water changes, as long as you accomplish the same end result.

My point is that the second the detritus is produced it starts to be processed. The nutrients go the same place they would go regardless of what type of setup you run: into your water and into organisms feeding on the detritus. Granted you have less decomposing at any one time than if you had a DSB, but some of those nutrients still go back into the rocks.

You seem to be thinking that all forms are the same but you are right, without a DSB storing and holding it, you do have a lot less in the system. Without the O2, Co2, acids, etc etc demands placed on the system.

How is what goes on inside of LR different than what happens inside of a sandbed on a larger scale?

That was a lot of sentences but I think this was your main point.

Where is a sand bed going to shed bacterial detritus and everything that's associated with it? Including particulate detritus?
What happens to marine sediments when you skew it to a large anaerobic area with a small aerobic area?

Again how is this different than in any other type of system?

Rocks try to reach a equilibrium with nutrients in the surrounding water - they can't pull a higher gradient of nutrients out of the water or fabricate a higher concentration. When you cook rocks, keeping them in cleaner water forces that bacteria to release chemically bound nutrients. Bacterial turgor (pressure) forces those nutrients out of the rocks.

Sandbeds store those same nutrients reaching a much higher concentration. There is no where for bacterial turgor to push but up. Marine sediments do not shed particulate bacterial detritus until they are full.
What you are counting on in marine sediments is a large aerobic (top oxygenated) area supported by a smaller more efficient anaerobic area (bottom low oxygen) separated by a anoxic area (middle that leaks a lot).
There is no way for a hobbyist to know what shape that DSB is in until they see hair algae and coral animal problems.