A warning about toxicity. A MUST read.

[hllywd]

I don't doubt the existence of "palytoxin", I do think it's not the danger in the aquarium it's hyped to be here or they're would be a lot of dead and disabled reefers. I draw the paralell to "urban legends" due to the fact most of these reports are attributable to reports from a friend, of a friend, of a friend's ,brotherinlaw's, sister's, aunt's, co-worker's, stockbroker...

Nobody can cite a direct, documented response. Nobody saw the dog eat the zoa. I had my hand in the aquarium and my hand swelled up and got itchy later, etc...

Are these reports caused by allergies, stings, or something you picked up at the gym????

My family, (parents, siblings, grandparents, kids, etc), as far as I know have never nearly to a person, had any allergies. The exception I know of is my niece is lactose intolerant. When we were kids, one of my brothers came in one day and his hand was swelling up, by the time it was done his hand and forearm were swollen twice their normal size, no other symptoms, marks, ideas for why. In a few days he was fine again. My point is it's the same type of thing with no proof what happened. If he had a reef tank with zoas and he had been fragging them that morning, would he have blamed the zoas?

There's no doubt we keep things that could be harmful if not handled safely. I think the zoa thing is being hyped without real proof.

 

[musicsmaker]

I've stated many times in this thread that if you were to be intoxicated with actual palytoxin that you would not be feeling an itchy sensation, or other minor symptoms.

Palytoxin is a (coronary) vasoconstrictor. If it gets you, you will most likely die.

60 MICROgrams killed a dog, and yes this is documented. It only took five minutes. What actually killed the dog? I'm guessing lack of oxygen to the brain. The circulatory system becomes so constricted that blood can't flow normally. Major organs suffer from anoxia, or lack of oxygen. The brain is a major organ that becomes damaged after, oh, about five minutes with no oxygen.

Corals have stinging cells, as well as chemicals that they use in warfare. These are the most likely cause of the itching, swelling, burning, and/or numbness that is often reported in this thread as well as other threads. So, in a way you are correct.

The fact of the matter is that palytoxin is/can be found in corals that get the common name zoanthids. That is the only place that it is naturally produced.

 

[hllywd]

I'm going to belabor the point and ask how do we know 60ug killed the dog? The dog had it's head in a tub that happened to have zoas in it hours earlier? Maybe I missed something, I admit I didn't read the whole thread. All the hand wringing with no real proof zoas have killed reefers or their dogs or for that matter even made them sick made me not want to continue. Nothing acute like a bee sting or a snake bite as evidence to support the conjecture.

Again I won't dispute some zoas may contain palytoxin, but how much does a polyp contain? Is it transfered with their sting or do you have to ingest/inject them? Would I have to eat 100 of them or simply have to swallow some tank water at water change time?

Just my POV...

 

[musicsmaker]

The dog I was talking about was not the one in the story, I should have been more specific. That bit of information comes from google searches on palytoxin itself.

I said micrograms, but I stand corrected. It is actually NANOgrams which is a billionth of a gram.

60 billionths of a gram kills a dog.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sci/chem-faq/part2/section-3.html

Ricin is a toxin lectin and hemagglutinin isolated from the castor bean.
Merck reports the lethal dose in mice as 1 microgram of ricin D nitrogen
(ip) per kg, and that ricin molecular weight is about 65,000. Ricin has
been shown to contain four lectins, of which the RCL III (aka Ricin D )
and RCL IV are the toxins. Merck also reports the following LD50 per kg
of bodyweight:-

Toxin Dose Test Animal
palytoxin 60 nanograms dog (iv)
( from coral ) 450 " mouse (iv)
( C129H223N3054 ) 50-100 " " (ip)
saxitoxin 3-5 micrograms mouse (iv)
( from shellfish ) 10 " " (ip)
( [C10H17N7O4]2+ ) 263 " " (oral).
tetrodotoxin 10 " mouse (ip)
( from globefish )
aflatoxin M1 332 micrograms duckling (oral)
aflatoxin M2 1.2 milligrams " "
aflatoxin B1 364 micrograms duckling (oral)
aflatoxin B2 1.6 milligrams " "
aflatoxin G1 784 micrograms " "
aflatoxin G2 3.4 milligrams " "

 

[musicsmaker]

Also, the quote in my very first post on page one was from a scientific paper. Sorry, the link is now dead. Read the bold print in my quote.

 

[musicsmaker]

One more PS. It is water soluble and is stable in seawater.

 

[CrazyLionfish]

Sorry I'm a lil confused with what you're saying. Just to clerify, was there any amount of the actual toxin found in the dog? I saw you said it was documented above, is there a website with the info, or is it documented in a way that we can't see?

I am in no way saying this poison is not dangerous, or that some zoos do not contain it. I just would really like to see something saying "After test results .5 nanograms were found within the dogs bloodstream" something like that.

Edit: I see now what you posted something about amount needed to kill different animals? Not sure what those numbers are of. It appears as if they added more and more until the creature died? Or are estimating from calculations? But that still doesn't show the connection between the poison and zoos, just showing that the poison itself, is dangerous (as we all know)

 

[tygger]

I started reading this thread and it seems to be going back and forth... what's the bottom line???

Do I need to wear gloves or not when handling zoas?

 

[dwdenny]

I always wore gloves when I messed with my old tank and it was a FOWLR but that was me. I dont think I would take the risk and wear them.

 

[CrazyLionfish]

I agree. This thread, although I am not 100% convinced, has discouraged me from purchasing any zoos. I just would really like to see some actual 100% true scientific proof, there's just too many "I think" "maybe" or claims with no info to back them up!

 

[musicsmaker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6756376#post6756376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tygger
Do I need to wear gloves or not when handling zoas?

It is a good idea to wear gloves any time you are in a tank. Mycobacterium marium can live in our tanks and that alone is nasty enough. Shouldn't kill you, but wow it can mess you up. Do a search here in the expert forums. Freaky stuff.

 

[musicsmaker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6750871#post6750871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CrazyLionfish
Just to clerify, was there any amount of the actual toxin found in the dog?

Not that I'm aware of in the thread where the dog had his head in the tub. FWIW, there have been documented cases of dogs chewing on corals found on the beach, and dying soon after. I don't think it's a good idea to be chewing on corals.

I see now what you posted something about amount needed to kill different animals? Not sure what those numbers are of. It appears as if they added more and more until the creature died? Or are estimating from calculations? But that still doesn't show the connection between the poison and zoos, just showing that the poison itself, is dangerous (as we all know) The numbers in the chart show amounts that kill animals in experiments. (Not that I condone that). The chart is much easier to read if you click on the link and view the original website.

 

[hllywd]

FWIW, there have been documented cases of dogs chewing on corals found on the beach, and dying soon after

Where can this documentation be found?

 

[JmLee]

so wait.... zoas arent lethal towards fish?. Ive seen my brothers queen angel eat a whole colony LoL and the fish is fine...

 

[Sk8r]

A quick search on the internet turned up info that 'sea mat' zooanthids could be toxic, those having continuous tissue at the base, vs. 'button polyps' which do not...just an fyi. Certainly it's worth knowing, and certain individuals could have a greater sensitivity than others---but an outright toxin, which they're talking about for this one variety is definitely to avoid: there's allergies or sensitivities, and then there's toxicity. IMHO, I'm going to handle mine with more respect. I did notice that the cited species had shorter, thicker 'eyelashes' than I'm used to seeing.

 

[birdfish]

Hi all,

First, I would agree that it is always better to use gloves when handling anything coral or rock from saltwater. I can't tell you how many times I found something biting, pinching, or piercing
by surprise. Salt gives it a nice twist too. But I have been in the business handling everything that is imported for many many years. My hands, like everyone's actually handling the stuff in LA
are both complete with fairly open wounds, and no gloves, ever.
In decades I do not know of one instance of anyone in the industry in LA having a reaction, despite literally thousands of employees touching zoos without gloves, probably hundreds of thosands of times. So, yes there is poison there. Can a type come in with it, of course. Can something bad happen? Yes.
The chances are far less than one in a million, or, dying from a bee sting, getting hit by lightning, attacked by a shark, and you
will surely get in an auto accident first.

birdfish

 

[NanoCube-boy]

hmm... i just finished working on my tank cleaning and found out i have a small sting like cut. I'm not sure how i got it be darn, making worry now.

 

[hllywd]

Wash it, put some neosporin on and let us know if you live...

 

[NanoCube-boy]

haha, I wash the crap out of my hands that night. I didn't have Alcohol, but I have listerine. I rinse and damp with Listerine for awhile and I woke up with my tummy feeling numb. I never woke with a numb belly, I might just sleep wrong. I doubted that it gotten something to do with the zoanthids. MAybe...

 

[hllywd]

Sounds like too much beer to me nano...