NanoCube-boy
New member
haha, no... I don't drnk. I have never drink any beer yet.
A warning about toxicity. A MUST read.
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Lord Voldemort
New member
After clicking on random forums and threads I can't believe I found this :eek2:
jessiesgrrl
In Memoriam
ROTFL....!! Anyone remember the rat from Charlotte's Web? I doubt even Templeton would deserve an end like THAT! Of course, women in CA inject neurotoxin into their faces everyday... Botox is Botulinum toxin, after all.
So maybe he would just end up a very unwrinkly sort of rat!
Laurie
So maybe he would just end up a very unwrinkly sort of rat!
Laurie
hllywd
Premier World Traveler
Is there some way your friend knows without a doubt it wasn't something else that caused the symtoms? Was the reaction instantaneous so there was no doubt? Was this a test to investigate toxicity, i.e. open cut and rub a torn zoanthid into it?
What were the circumstances?
I'm really trying to understand, hundreds of people here with experience and yet all the warning stories are he said, she said types of information. Many, even in this thread claim to have had "frag juice" all over their hands with no ill effects at all, I have in fact.
Personally I believe these claims need evidence to back them up to be credible.
Again I have no doubts there may be toxic zoanthids, nearly everything here has an urban legend quality though.
Sorry, still my opinion.
Tim
What were the circumstances?
I'm really trying to understand, hundreds of people here with experience and yet all the warning stories are he said, she said types of information. Many, even in this thread claim to have had "frag juice" all over their hands with no ill effects at all, I have in fact.
Personally I believe these claims need evidence to back them up to be credible.
Again I have no doubts there may be toxic zoanthids, nearly everything here has an urban legend quality though.
Sorry, still my opinion.
Tim
reefer5060
New member
today i had a loose zoa polyp come into direct contact with a cut on my finger ( the cut was open) and i am feeling no effects .
jessiesgrrl
In Memoriam
As far as credible, I would suggest checking out the info Bob Fenner has on zoanthid care and toxicity on Wet Web Media. That should get rid of the urban legend quality...
Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.
I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.
Have a great day
Laurie
Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.
I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.
Have a great day
Laurie
NanoCube-boy
New member
I knew the zoanthids are toxic, how do you guys frag it? What coloris there toxic?
hllywd
Premier World Traveler
"Mr Fenner's" web site isn't real easy to look up exactly what you're intending to find, however I did find the Hawaiian tide pool disertation again there on how palytoxin was supposedly discovered. I've never said I doubted the existance of the toxin, only the posts here that make the claims of the fiddler's dog eating a rock with some zoanthids attached and keeling over.
Again I question, does it take one polyp or 29 acres of polyps concentrated to make enough toxin to be bothersome? If it were 1 polyp the things would have been outlawed from sale a long time ago because of high numbers of dead LFS kids.
I realize many toxins such as botulinum occur naturally and even in the home from immproperly preserved foods... What I don't understand is what "California women" injecting it in their faces has to do with the subject at hand...
If we want to go there what the heck does California have to do with it? It's advertised locally here in NW Ohio. I'd rather see less wrinkles in older ladies than more of the freakshow piercings and hardware people are putting in their faces (and other body locations for that matter)...
Back on topic, there may be some factual info in this thread, I believe the "urban legend" quality I've addressed is from hearsay and exagerated stories from well meaning individuals hoping to avert disaster based on unsubstantiated information.
Tim
I just handled a tiny (1" x 1/2") colony of zoas, my very first, bare-handed. No cuts on the hand but no protective gear either. I did wash my hands afterwards and it is only an hour or two after the handling so I'm not feeling anything yet. I think I will order gloves, however. I don't think I've heard of the zoa toxicity up until now. Thanks again for the heads up.
I'm a bit worried now..
I'm a bit worried now..
I dont think the point of this topic is to spread fear but more of a caution that there is a CHANCE that something bad could happen. Has anyone at all seen ANY study of any kind or even a decent experiment done that shows that zoos cause absolutely no health risks? What about even a poor experiment? Just because you dont see something doesn't means it isn't there. Thats called ignorance and many many people have died from ignorance.
It is not hard to prove that SOME do contain toxins and while I am not trying to imply we are all in danger, I think it is completely irresponsible for people not to voice a word of caution about them. I cant think of anything more stupid than taking a risk that could kill you or someone you love, when all it takes to prevent is a little caution and some gloves... are you guys that cheap? Hell I bet there are people that will buy you gloves if you cant afford them (in which case you are definately in the wrong hobby anyway). Thats like saying you wont use a condom during random sex because you never got AIDS before and that you dont think this person has it.
And for the "LFS couldn't sell it if it is dangerous" argument. There are many fish that are toxic that are quite easy to buy... puffers are well known to be deadly if you eat the wrong part of them, but you could also die if you cut up the puffer in the tank then bit your fingernails. Lionfish are toxic and while they dont kill you, dont you think someone out there would have sued if they could? Yet it has never happened because there is no way to connect the LFS to the incident. If you are careless then why would a pet store be at fault? Answer: They aren't as long as they didn't lie to you about it and pass it off as safe. What about suing walmart because someone bought a knife from there that they used to kill your relative? That is not the way it works, please dont try to downplay something that CAN KILL YOU just because you want to live in ignorance or play devils advocate... especially when you dont have even close to all the facts. And actually there isn't a person alive that has all the facts about this. Marine fish and animals in general are some of the least understood creatures on earth... but I dont see how lack of information equals "safe". This has the potential to be a very bad thing and people are only trying to get the word out so that others can be informed and stay safe... and they are getting jumped on because some people dont want to believe or they never got sick... does this seem ludicrous to anyone else besides me?
Sorry for the nature of this post, but if there is even a tiny chance of me dying or even getting sick from them than I want to know about it and others have the right to know as well. Unless you have some facts or at least some LOGIC please dont post saying that they are all safe and its just made up. I would rather be alive, 5 minutes slower working on my tank, and $12 poorer than dead with an extra $12 in my pocket... seems pretty simple to me :-/
It is not hard to prove that SOME do contain toxins and while I am not trying to imply we are all in danger, I think it is completely irresponsible for people not to voice a word of caution about them. I cant think of anything more stupid than taking a risk that could kill you or someone you love, when all it takes to prevent is a little caution and some gloves... are you guys that cheap? Hell I bet there are people that will buy you gloves if you cant afford them (in which case you are definately in the wrong hobby anyway). Thats like saying you wont use a condom during random sex because you never got AIDS before and that you dont think this person has it.
And for the "LFS couldn't sell it if it is dangerous" argument. There are many fish that are toxic that are quite easy to buy... puffers are well known to be deadly if you eat the wrong part of them, but you could also die if you cut up the puffer in the tank then bit your fingernails. Lionfish are toxic and while they dont kill you, dont you think someone out there would have sued if they could? Yet it has never happened because there is no way to connect the LFS to the incident. If you are careless then why would a pet store be at fault? Answer: They aren't as long as they didn't lie to you about it and pass it off as safe. What about suing walmart because someone bought a knife from there that they used to kill your relative? That is not the way it works, please dont try to downplay something that CAN KILL YOU just because you want to live in ignorance or play devils advocate... especially when you dont have even close to all the facts. And actually there isn't a person alive that has all the facts about this. Marine fish and animals in general are some of the least understood creatures on earth... but I dont see how lack of information equals "safe". This has the potential to be a very bad thing and people are only trying to get the word out so that others can be informed and stay safe... and they are getting jumped on because some people dont want to believe or they never got sick... does this seem ludicrous to anyone else besides me?
Sorry for the nature of this post, but if there is even a tiny chance of me dying or even getting sick from them than I want to know about it and others have the right to know as well. Unless you have some facts or at least some LOGIC please dont post saying that they are all safe and its just made up. I would rather be alive, 5 minutes slower working on my tank, and $12 poorer than dead with an extra $12 in my pocket... seems pretty simple to me :-/
As to specifics on what is or is not safe, the only answer is that nobody really knows. Not because it is a huge mystery we cant solve but more that there are just so many things in the ocean we dont understand, this is just one of the countless things we dont know yet. Color is probably not an accurate way to even guess how safe or not a polyp could be. Zoanthids can change and morph colors quite rapidly and what was red last month could be orange or yellow in a few more. Color is more a result of the algae inside of them than what species they are. I have had some colonies change colors quite drastically and even gain markings that they didn't have previously. Color in zoanthis is never a scientific way to identify them. I also am not aware of anyone that has learned how the toxin is produced. It may be something that happens only in nature (and so maybe only very newly imported ones could have it) or maybe only from certain regions of the world or maybe... or maybe... who knows, but thats kind of the point. We know too little at this point to be able to say ANYTHING with much accuracy. Its better to be cautious when you dont know much about an animal that can kill you.
It is likely however that the toxin is there to prevent things from eating the colonies, so probably just touching the zoos wouldn't be a risk. More likely is that eating or injuring the polyp to release the toxin (and then getting the toxin into your body) is the primary (maybe only) way to put yourself at any real risk.
It is likely however that the toxin is there to prevent things from eating the colonies, so probably just touching the zoos wouldn't be a risk. More likely is that eating or injuring the polyp to release the toxin (and then getting the toxin into your body) is the primary (maybe only) way to put yourself at any real risk.
hllywd
Premier World Traveler
Don Lino,
Nobody here has a clue which zoas may carry palytoxin, what color(s) or other features they may have, if they are available to the aquarium trade or anything else factual for that matter.
Yours look stressed from shipping, maybe it is the toxin, more likely it something else from the stress I would say.
Be a skeptic and don't believe everything you read on the internet.
Tim
Nobody here has a clue which zoas may carry palytoxin, what color(s) or other features they may have, if they are available to the aquarium trade or anything else factual for that matter.
Yours look stressed from shipping, maybe it is the toxin, more likely it something else from the stress I would say.
Be a skeptic and don't believe everything you read on the internet.
Tim
NanoCube-boy
New member
I highly recommend you to use gloves when handle these, even if you don't have cuts. Might want to wear something that cover your face as well to protect you mouth, eyes and nose. These guys are extremely toxin and you shouldn't take at risk.
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