zebrashark
In Memoriam
very interesting..i better get some gloves to be safe then
A warning about toxicity. A MUST read.
- Thread starter musicsmaker
- Start date
vanvelzen
New member
I've been following this topic with quite some interest as I'm a fan of zoanthids as well.
But how about removing some unwanted palythoa's without releasing too much palytoxins into the tank? (although not sure if these palythoa's do contain palytoxin at all, but better safe than sorry)
These palytoxins came with the live rock and are multiplying quite rapidly (fragmenting from the foot). I cannot remove the rock as it is an integral part of my reef and cannot be taken out without completely destroying a part of the tank.
Obviously, I will be using gloves but: a) what is the best way to remove them without risking too much palytoxins being released into the tank?
But how about removing some unwanted palythoa's without releasing too much palytoxins into the tank? (although not sure if these palythoa's do contain palytoxin at all, but better safe than sorry)
These palytoxins came with the live rock and are multiplying quite rapidly (fragmenting from the foot). I cannot remove the rock as it is an integral part of my reef and cannot be taken out without completely destroying a part of the tank.
Obviously, I will be using gloves but: a) what is the best way to remove them without risking too much palytoxins being released into the tank?
TheCoralNabber
New member
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15451028#post15451028
A recent encounter with polytoxin from dead palythoa on LR I just purchased.
A recent encounter with polytoxin from dead palythoa on LR I just purchased.
DAftPunker
New member
I am still a firm believe that it is your own basic chemistry. You may or may not be allergic to it. For one don't eat it. If you have open cuts/sores don't put your hands in the tank or frag. Again, don't eat or drink anything out of the tank. I would be most concerned with wearing safety goggles though because anything in the eye is not good.
Unless somebody has legit lab tests when they get 'sick' saying it's a palytoxin, I am not going to buy the fact that a fever, headache, sore throat is a paly toxin. There are a bunch of different virus morphs and bacteria species out there that can cause those same symptoms.
Self diagnosis without any true lab results is like saying you have bacterial meningitis for 2 days cuz you have a sore neck from a concert you went to...
I've read a bunch over this massive catalog of information (mostly useless) called the internet and nothing is completely conclusive on this subject. I have not found a single legit institute site claiming the deadly toxins of palythoas. If this was such a hot topic with all the corals on the market, don't you maybe think a marine biologist PhD student, at least 1 would have done their thesis on it's toxicity? I'm having a hard time searching academic journals finding anything.
Someone made a good point though, that you should use gloves, and I would suggest safety goggles as I said above, and if you wanna be extra cautious get a sand blasting mask. If you happen to coincidentally get sick after fragging or handling zoas, and you go to the doctor or hospital, TELL THEM. That is why they get a background...
That being said, I am not a marine biologist, nor am I a doctor, but I do know how they do and don't affect me so far, and what I will do is take precautions when dealing with them, but I'm not going to worry or have fear of keeping them in my tank. Nor do I think they will affect my tank either.
Unless somebody has legit lab tests when they get 'sick' saying it's a palytoxin, I am not going to buy the fact that a fever, headache, sore throat is a paly toxin. There are a bunch of different virus morphs and bacteria species out there that can cause those same symptoms.
Self diagnosis without any true lab results is like saying you have bacterial meningitis for 2 days cuz you have a sore neck from a concert you went to...
I've read a bunch over this massive catalog of information (mostly useless) called the internet and nothing is completely conclusive on this subject. I have not found a single legit institute site claiming the deadly toxins of palythoas. If this was such a hot topic with all the corals on the market, don't you maybe think a marine biologist PhD student, at least 1 would have done their thesis on it's toxicity? I'm having a hard time searching academic journals finding anything.
Someone made a good point though, that you should use gloves, and I would suggest safety goggles as I said above, and if you wanna be extra cautious get a sand blasting mask. If you happen to coincidentally get sick after fragging or handling zoas, and you go to the doctor or hospital, TELL THEM. That is why they get a background...
That being said, I am not a marine biologist, nor am I a doctor, but I do know how they do and don't affect me so far, and what I will do is take precautions when dealing with them, but I'm not going to worry or have fear of keeping them in my tank. Nor do I think they will affect my tank either.
DAftPunker
New member
I didn't catch this before making my post. Maybe the best story so far, but as I said in my last post, you shouldn't eat anything out of the tank. Did they give you a anti-toxin or anything for it?
NanoCube-boy
New member
gotten stun by my Button Corals and I did feel weird for awhile.
Whitebird1
New member
Happened to me! READ!
Happened to me! READ!
I posted this on NJRC and it applies to this thread. Learned my lesson!
Hope this helps to spread the word.
POSTS-
While playing with my frags I got some on me, not good. Then fresh water dipping and swooshing around, I got the water on my arms, again not good, no details, but has anyone dealt with this?? Cortizone, nothing is working!
POST-
Quote
If really bad the emergency room.
Not a that stage, but not good.
Quote
It looked like poison ivy and itched like crazy for days.
That describes it but on a higher level or too ,Been a month since the main exposer, very slow healing, like a chemical burn.
Quote
has this happened before? cause you play with lotsa zoos. was it a particular one that caused it?
First Time did not were gloves, not a immediate reaction, but DAMM, after a few days i new I screwed up. Second Time Was splash above the gloves on the arm. Just plain zoos, 12 or do types. They were seceating Mucus, Thats the bad stuff.
Follow up- Finally went to the Doctor, been about 5 weeks, never healed. He knew exactly what it was and how to treat it! Three day into it and I am healing nicely. Heavy oral steroids, 37 tabs of 10MG Prednisone in 9 days and clobetasol ointment, topical, twice a day,(Super High Potency). This is more commonly known as Coral contact dermatitis and Nonhealing pruritic rash.
Note-This cannot be treated at home, neosporin, Cortizone ect. are useless.
http://www.cortlandtforum.com/Nonhealing-pruritic-rash-after-a-visit-to-the-Caribbean/article/118799/2/
Happened to me! READ!
I posted this on NJRC and it applies to this thread. Learned my lesson!
Hope this helps to spread the word.
POSTS-
While playing with my frags I got some on me, not good. Then fresh water dipping and swooshing around, I got the water on my arms, again not good, no details, but has anyone dealt with this?? Cortizone, nothing is working!
POST-
Quote
If really bad the emergency room.
Not a that stage, but not good.
Quote
It looked like poison ivy and itched like crazy for days.
That describes it but on a higher level or too ,Been a month since the main exposer, very slow healing, like a chemical burn.
Quote
has this happened before? cause you play with lotsa zoos. was it a particular one that caused it?
First Time did not were gloves, not a immediate reaction, but DAMM, after a few days i new I screwed up. Second Time Was splash above the gloves on the arm. Just plain zoos, 12 or do types. They were seceating Mucus, Thats the bad stuff.
Follow up- Finally went to the Doctor, been about 5 weeks, never healed. He knew exactly what it was and how to treat it! Three day into it and I am healing nicely. Heavy oral steroids, 37 tabs of 10MG Prednisone in 9 days and clobetasol ointment, topical, twice a day,(Super High Potency). This is more commonly known as Coral contact dermatitis and Nonhealing pruritic rash.
Note-This cannot be treated at home, neosporin, Cortizone ect. are useless.
http://www.cortlandtforum.com/Nonhealing-pruritic-rash-after-a-visit-to-the-Caribbean/article/118799/2/
HUNTINREDNECK
New member
i see
firebirdude
User and Abuser
I've watched my local LFS handle rocks packed with zoas like they weren't even there. Hundreds of times. I asked him about this, and his response was "I've been handling these for years this way without anything happening."
As a brand new reefer with a couple of zoa "volunteers" on my new liverock, I'm very interested in this topic. I just did a very cursory search of the scientific literature for palytoxin - skimming for information about its origin. Here's what one paper (Ciminiello et al 2009). I've bolded the important parts.
"The level and content of PLTXs in toxic Palythoa spp. have been reported to vary significantly among species, populations of the same species, and even seasonally (2, 13). The assumption that PLTXs are actually produced by bacteria (2, 14) or microalgae presumably existing symbiotically with Palythoa (15) has also been defended. Sporadic occurrence of PLTXs in algae (15), crabs (16a, 16b), and fish (17) alike indicates that microorganisms could represent the real source of these toxins.
Recently, dinoflagellates belonging to the genus Ostreopsis have been proposed to be probable biogenetic originators of PLTXs. This follows from identification of three PLTX analogues from Ostreopsis spp., namely, (1) ostreocin-D from Ostreopsis siamensis (18), (2) mascarenotoxins from Ostreopsis mascarenensis (19), and (3) ovatoxin-a from Ostreopsis ovata (20)."
It sounds like this whole scenario might be very similar to tetrodotoxins in poison dart frogs. In the natural environment, conditions are right for the organisms to acquire these toxins but in captivity they rapidly lose any toxicity. You have to have Ostreopsis dinoflagellates to have toxic Palythoas. That said...I did find a couple of clinical cases of relatively rock solid poisonings, but almost always from eating fish. Here is one bona fide case from captive coral:
Hoffmann et al 2008 "A case of human poisoning by palytoxin after contact with zoanthid corals (Parazoanthus sp.) in an aquarium through skin injuries on fingers is reported. The clinical symptoms include swelling, paraesthesia and numbness around the site of the injury spreading over the arm, but also signs of systemic poisoning such as dizziness, general weakness and myalgia, irregularities in the ECG and indications of rhabdomyolysis. Symptomatic treatment consisted of infusion of physiological fluids. The patient recovered within 3 days. Analysis of the zoanthid coral involved revealed extremely high concentrations of palytoxin (between 2 and 3 mg/g)."
I won't draw any conclusions, but just wanted people to have something besides anecdotal evidence.
"The level and content of PLTXs in toxic Palythoa spp. have been reported to vary significantly among species, populations of the same species, and even seasonally (2, 13). The assumption that PLTXs are actually produced by bacteria (2, 14) or microalgae presumably existing symbiotically with Palythoa (15) has also been defended. Sporadic occurrence of PLTXs in algae (15), crabs (16a, 16b), and fish (17) alike indicates that microorganisms could represent the real source of these toxins.
Recently, dinoflagellates belonging to the genus Ostreopsis have been proposed to be probable biogenetic originators of PLTXs. This follows from identification of three PLTX analogues from Ostreopsis spp., namely, (1) ostreocin-D from Ostreopsis siamensis (18), (2) mascarenotoxins from Ostreopsis mascarenensis (19), and (3) ovatoxin-a from Ostreopsis ovata (20)."
It sounds like this whole scenario might be very similar to tetrodotoxins in poison dart frogs. In the natural environment, conditions are right for the organisms to acquire these toxins but in captivity they rapidly lose any toxicity. You have to have Ostreopsis dinoflagellates to have toxic Palythoas. That said...I did find a couple of clinical cases of relatively rock solid poisonings, but almost always from eating fish. Here is one bona fide case from captive coral:
Hoffmann et al 2008 "A case of human poisoning by palytoxin after contact with zoanthid corals (Parazoanthus sp.) in an aquarium through skin injuries on fingers is reported. The clinical symptoms include swelling, paraesthesia and numbness around the site of the injury spreading over the arm, but also signs of systemic poisoning such as dizziness, general weakness and myalgia, irregularities in the ECG and indications of rhabdomyolysis. Symptomatic treatment consisted of infusion of physiological fluids. The patient recovered within 3 days. Analysis of the zoanthid coral involved revealed extremely high concentrations of palytoxin (between 2 and 3 mg/g)."
I won't draw any conclusions, but just wanted people to have something besides anecdotal evidence.
noobtothereef
New member
Errr try again?? 99% of the mechanics i know are alcoholics and smoke like chimneys, most mechanics dont get paid squat and have a certain "lifestyle" that just comes with low paying jobs in the trade, do you think they get cancer from having greasy hands? Seriously?
noobtothereef
New member
soon you will see guys in space suits while fraggin zoo's.....
An ounce of prevention is what...?
WhiteBird, sounds like you just got reef rash. Surfers get it all the time.
If anyone actually had any level of exposure to PLTX they would be dead within minutes. You can get a bacterial infection in many different ways, many types of marine life being one of them. Im doubting that any of the P's in this hobby actually contain PLTX, not saying it doesn't exist, just that it has been grossly hyped.
If anyone actually had any level of exposure to PLTX they would be dead within minutes. You can get a bacterial infection in many different ways, many types of marine life being one of them. Im doubting that any of the P's in this hobby actually contain PLTX, not saying it doesn't exist, just that it has been grossly hyped.
Whitebird1
New member
Well, some are in dis belief, well something hit me hard. For notes, I was dipping est. 200 Assorted Zoo and Paly frags in water that I did not know was acidic.
Major slime. Last September I believe. Well 2 MDs and 2 dermatologists later, well, not healed, gets bad, gets not so bad.
Any Experts on here that have any suggestions I would appreciate the advice.
The ones who doubt, well, keep on playing with them!! But do not advise others to do the same.
Never posted a pic before, right hand, cream on it, finger tips cracking, took it 5 min ago, this is , this is 9 month later!!
Major slime. Last September I believe. Well 2 MDs and 2 dermatologists later, well, not healed, gets bad, gets not so bad.
Any Experts on here that have any suggestions I would appreciate the advice.
The ones who doubt, well, keep on playing with them!! But do not advise others to do the same.
Never posted a pic before, right hand, cream on it, finger tips cracking, took it 5 min ago, this is , this is 9 month later!!
Whitebird1
New member
One of my favs, did the home work.
DID I MENTION IT HURTS LIKE H@LL!
just scaring the noobs!
Did any of those docs consider and test for Mycobacterium marinum, aka fish turburculosis? That would be consistent with the long term infection.
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