Acetic acid, glycolic acid and citric acid as a carbon source?

[reefmutt]

I found a product called Simply Clean Vinegar Plus which I am considering using to wash some old live rock with to try to remove some po4.
It contains Acetic acid, hydroxyacetic acid (glycolic acid) and citric acid. And says that it is 5x more concentrated than regular vinegar.
I'm quite certain it will remove the top layer of any calcium based rock but then I was thinking about wether it would be a better or a more concentrated carbon source for no3 and po4 reduction...
I just don't know if the other ingredients are safe.. I'm assuming citric acid should be as safe as acetic acid (regular vinegar) just not sure about he glycolic acid..
At $4 per litre and 5 x as concentrated as vinegar, a little would go a long way towards reducing n and p..... I think..
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance..

 

[bertoni]

I wouldn't put the glycolic acid or the citric acid into my system, personally. I don't know what the breakdown paths for glycolic acid might be in a tank. Maybe someone can comment. Citric acid can be dosed, but it's been known to cause issues for some people.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know for sure what effects it might have, but it is no less expensive than vinegar, which I get for less than $3 per gallon, and vinegar is a food grade. That material is not.

 

[reefmutt]

Ok!
I'll keep it out of the tank..
Thanks very much!

 

[Kungpaoshizzle]

Heh, ya, that's probably not something to put into the tank:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolic_acid
Glycolic acid is a strong irritant depending on the pH levels.[10] Like ethylene glycol, it is metabolized to oxalic acid, which could make it dangerous if ingested
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
and is extremely destructive to tissue of mucous membranes

 

[reefmutt]

Hm.. I was thinking about cutting it 50/50 with fresh water as a way to clean old live rock..
I was going to treat it like vinegar but perhaps this stuff warrants the caution used when diluted muriatic is employed as a rock cleaner..
Thanks very much for the info!

 

[shermanator]

Hm.. I was thinking about cutting it 50/50 with fresh water as a way to clean old live rock..
I was going to treat it like vinegar but perhaps this stuff warrants the caution used when diluted muriatic is employed as a rock cleaner..
Thanks very much for the info!

Glycolic acid is a soft acid (like acetic acid) and would not work as a mineral acid (hydrochloric / muriatic acid) replacement to clean rock.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks, shermanator..
I know nothing about acids (despite what I may have 'learned' during spring break, in another lifetime, many, many years ago...)
I've used basic vinegar to completely soften and remove coralline algae from pumps.
Wouldn't this product, which is more concentrated, remove the outer crust of live rock?
I'm sure it's not as corrosive to calcium build up as muriatic but I was hoping for a slightly less aggressive (and less dangerous) alternative that might still do the job..
Do you think it really wouldn't do anything?

 

[shermanator]

Thanks, shermanator..
I know nothing about acids (despite what I may have 'learned' during spring break, in another lifetime, many, many years ago...)
I've used basic vinegar to completely soften and remove coralline algae from pumps.
Wouldn't this product, which is more concentrated, remove the outer crust of live rock?
I'm sure it's not as corrosive to calcium build up as muriatic but I was hoping for a slightly less aggressive (and less dangerous) alternative that might still do the job..
Do you think it really wouldn't do anything?

I should have been more clear: It'll work similarly to acetic acid. It will help remove detritus and "crud" from the rock (or a powerhead), but it won't as effective at removing phosphate from the rock as muriatic acid (which requires stripping a layer of calcium carbonate off the rock).

Any acid will dissolve calcium carbonate via acid-base reaction. But the hard (mineral acids) like HCl (hydrochloric / muriatic) are much more effective because their conjugate base won't buffer the reaction. Consider acetic vs hydrochloric acid:

CaCO3 + 2 CH3COOH (acetic acid) -> Ca (CH3COO)2 (calcium acetate) + CO2(g) + H2O

CaCO3 + 2 HCl -> CaCl2 (calcium chloride) + CO2(g) + H2O