Achilles In Treatment and not doing well.

maroun.c

maroun.c

New member
Hi, Got this Achilles around 25 days ago. Placed it in the Sump of my system which had been disconnected from the tank and kept running fishless since 3-4 months. Did fine for the initial days eating mysis since day 1 and on day 12 (same as two other Achilles I ahve gotten over the last 2 years) developed white spots. Not sure if this was ich or velvet as I was traveling and came back 3-4 days later fo find it after the spots had decreased to around half as per my wife observation. Still it seemed very widespread and hazy spots which looked more like velvet. The fish only stopped eating for one day on day 2 of the spots then it resumed eating. moved it to a 65 G Q tank with hang on teh back filter, internal filter and skimmer. treated with Cupramine and went very slow with the dose as I lost the 2 previous ones 2-3 days after treatment (those had stopped eating and looke much worse though) Reached 70% of the dose by day 7-8 and he was doing great, then saw a few spots that looked like ich for 2-3 days. didn't up Cupramine dose more than 70% and last 3 days he's been deteriorating:
Getting discolorated as can be seen on pics, also some whitish patches that look like scales (See arrows)
breathing a bit fast
Hiding in the PVS tube the last 2 days and goes out to swim crazy fast and back again.
One eye is very cloudy (mixing Antibiotic bactrim plus with food once a day since 2 days)
till today eats every time I feed the tank. and swims very balanced.
I have placed some cuprisorb in the filter to take out the copper as I believe this could be causing this. wouldn't mind observing for a longer period or retreating once he's past the discoloration and patches...
any Ideas what those are? and if I should be treating differently? also noticed today that there is a grove like area between his mouth and his nose, Not sure if this is normal.
Any suggestions on how to proceed? Thanks for any suggestions

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May be velvet (for which chloroquinine phosphate is best), brook, or uronema. The picture is not definitive for me, but the time line suggests one of the latter. If a fish is in a non-therapeutic dose of copper at the supplier, it usually take about 3 weeks (one life cycle) to develop velvet. Brook or uronema usually is faster.
 
Thanks for the info Snorvitch,
Had read all those and many other stuff on ich and velvet and most of what i read describes a 3-7 days lifecycle on the fish. This one was shipped from holland and spent a night in the sump of the Lfs display so cant pinpoint if it caught something from the supplier or LFS tank. Yet for both possibilities 12 days is kind of late for symptoms to show...
Any idea what is causing the discoloration and raised scales on the body? It has passed the initial outbreak and its colors came back so i doubt its from ich or velvet as i never saw them cause this, could it be from copper?
Any idea how should i continue treating, ive already added cuprisorb to take out the cupramine as its the only thing i can think off that could have caused the skin to discolor in those patches.
 
Still eating? (The sump of the LFS was probably the culprit). The life cycle of ich can be extremely protracted (72 days) even though the "normal" is much less. The life cycle of velvet is about 3 weeks but if it was in a nontherapeutic level of copper, it would have deferred the start. Any peeling of the skin?
 
I'm seeing a bit of skin peeling this morning also he's much less active and did not eat. Did a dip with antibiotics and vitamins in the water. Flooded the dip with food hoping he'll eat but he didn't except for a couple of particles that went in his mouth. Second eye is now cloudy with no signs of spots. Is there anything I can do other than the antibiotics if he's alive this afternoon?
 
maroun.c said:
I'm seeing a bit of skin peeling this morning also he's much less active and did not eat. Did a dip with antibiotics and vitamins in the water. Flooded the dip with food hoping he'll eat but he didn't except for a couple of particles that went in his mouth. Second eye is now cloudy with no signs of spots. Is there anything I can do other than the antibiotics if he's alive this afternoon?
Click to expand...

Skin peeling is indicative of uronema or brook. Please read that sticky in the fish parasites above.
 
Have you tried a freshwater dip? Do you have any Prazi on hand? Those whitish patches that look like scales could very well be flukes. Cloudy eyes, loss of color, hiding and not eating are indicative of severe fluke infestation.
 
Newsmyrna80 said:
Have you tried a freshwater dip? Do you have any Prazi on hand? Those whitish patches that look like scales could very well be flukes. Cloudy eyes, loss of color, hiding and not eating are indicative of severe fluke infestation.
Click to expand...

Good idea, cannot hurt at this point. Even if it is brook, it would provide temporary relief (fresh water dip). If it is flukes, that would confirm it.
 
Thanks for all the advice, unfortunately came back to find the fish dead, which was quite expected considering how bad it looked. Did a freshwater dip just to try to identify the cause, and indeed what i thought was raised scales started to move and within mintues i had a massive number of flukes move and detach and die in the dip container.
I usually do a prazi cycle after a couple of weeks in the introduction tank and earlier if fish is eating well, unfortunately in this case it was delayed as i was treating with cupramine for the initial velvet, ich...
Is it possible to combine copper and prazi? Or should i do a fresh water dip before copper to give the fish time till after copper for the prazipro to deal with potential flukes?
 
Sorry off your loss. Everybody has different procedures for quarantining. I perform FW dip on all newly acquired fish. I personally do not use copper but I have read that Prazi can be used in conjunction with copper.
 
I don't use copper as well unless the fish has any symptoms. I tend to just observe the fish till it eats then a prazi treatment or two and to the display after that unless it shows any spots.
 
maroun.c said:
I don't use copper as well unless the fish has any symptoms. I tend to just observe the fish till it eats then a prazi treatment or two and to the display after that unless it shows any spots.
Click to expand...

Tank transfer is a great way to be sure ich isn't present. Ich can easily live only in the gills for who knows how long.
 
MrTuskfish said:
Tank transfer is a great way to be sure ich isn't present. Ich can easily live only in the gills for who knows how long.
Click to expand...

That's what I do right after the FW dip. If flukes present in dip I dose Prazi concurrently with the TT. Then observation for at least 30 days after TT is done.
 
maroun.c said:
Is it possible to combine copper and prazi? Or should i do a fresh water dip before copper to give the fish time till after copper for the prazipro to deal with potential flukes?
Click to expand...

Yes, you can treat with prazi and cupramine at the same time. Once a fish is eating, I dose prazi, then introduce cupramine with another dose of prazi shortly after starting the cupramine and making sure the fish is still eating. Given you suspected ich or velvet, you took the right approach by starting cupramine. In hindsight, you could have done a quick freshwater dip and then started cupramine as it seems that the primary problem was flukes, but we all know hindsight is 20/20.
 
Dr Colliebreath said:
Yes, you can treat with prazi and cupramine at the same time. Once a fish is eating, I dose prazi, then introduce cupramine with another dose of prazi shortly after starting the cupramine and making sure the fish is still eating. Given you suspected ich or velvet, you took the right approach by starting cupramine. In hindsight, you could have done a quick freshwater dip and then started cupramine as it seems that the primary problem was flukes, but we all know hindsight is 20/20.
Click to expand...

Spot on , my only regret was not doing a FW dip when i took the tang out to the quarantine. I would have noticed the presence of flukes and at least provided some relief till treating with Prazi, or even started prazi treatment (didnt know then i could run both together)
My reasoning for not doing a FW dip then was that the fish had the initial outbreak and was looking much better, eating and swimming excellent, just a tiny bit of hyperventilation. So didnt see the need to FW dip which turned out to be a big mistake.
 
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