achillies & pb can it be done?????

[downlimit]

taflaw I can see that you are very concerned and have done some research into the matter. And Ill even go as far as saying that in someways you are correct in your assumptions that your research is paramount to the hobby, granted people with less experience in the hobby should not try this as their chances of success will be minimal, however having not only kept these types of fish on my own reef tanks together, but also having a degree in the matter. I can tell you that you are misguided in several ways. First of all your statistics you are claiming never have you stated how this research was done, in what size tanks were these animals placed, or what type of husbandry was taken. Second you should not take every word you read as a bible, most of the time these are theories, not facts. For example, I went to school for 10 years to become a doctor, but guess what, in med school all I learned was theory, once I left med school, I started something called a practice, in which I then learned how to actually put those theories into practice and get them to work. This hobby is a science, you must first understand that in science there is a very small amount of things that are absolute, and mountains of of information which can and do change.

Regarding your smoking theory, I can also tell you that smoking is something I discourage, however no one has ever proven what you are taking as facts. In order for any scientist to prove that theory we would need about 10,000 people to agree to live in a controlled environment for about 40 years, of which x number of people would be smokers through out and smoke at a given pace, and x number of people would be none smokers. as you can see from the above this is a theory that will never be proven. The fact is that your cars spit out 1000's of more carcinogens than any cigarette you smoke, but you will never se me or any other physician telling you to quit driving, until we have a viable substitute. Then you will hear how your are killing yourselves by driving a combustion engine vehicle.

Anyways, If you have a 200 gallon tank, with plenty of liverock, and hiding spaces, and you are maintining proper husbandry of your tank you should be fine with regards to keeping both the pbt and the achilles tang.

 

[neilbowden]

thanks downlimit....can you give any more guidance on how to go about introducing & maintaining these two together? thanks you

 

[downlimit]

In my experience I have found that achilles tangs are a little more agressive than pbt, lets also note that these are really not agressive fish, So I would simply add the PBT to the tank first let it get acclimated, and within a short period of time say a week add the achilles. I wouldnt recommend putting them in at the same time, or waiting a long time between introductions, as this would then cause the territorial fights that none of us want to see. The one thing that I would certainly point out to you is that the feeding requirements of the PBT must be met or he will suffer or die. So before purchasing said animal, I would make sure that he is eating, that he shows no signs of desease or weakness. make sure you take your time in getting the right specimen, heck if need be talk to your lFS about holding it in their tanks for a week, and check on the little guy everyday, make sure he is still eating, that he is improving daily. If you have an LFS worth his salt, he wont mind doing this, if they do, I would say find a new one that is just as interested in their fish, as they are in your money. bottom line finding the right fish is in my opinion of the outmost importance. Once you do find that specimen, make sure that you are able to maintain the diet that he has acclimated too, and with you can move him into a new routine, but at least for the first 3 months keep their diet as they had it at the lfs, try to avoid any more stress on the fish than what he already has.

 

[downlimit]

having gone back to read your initial thread, you mentioned a very agressive yellow tang, if this were my tanks, and I had a second tank available, I would first find a way to move the yellow tang out of there, then add the new fish. Once the new fish have claimed their spaces, then I would re introduce the yellow tang, otherwise you really have a small chance of pulling this off, as the yellow tang will just bully them too much.

 

[neilbowden]

thanks downlimit.......should they go in when feedin or at lites out also uses loads of mirrors

 

[neilbowden]

thanks downlimit.....anyone else had success with these two?

 

[taflaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7084012#post7084012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downlimit

Regarding your smoking theory, I can also tell you that smoking is something I discourage, however no one has ever proven what you are taking as facts. In order for any scientist to prove that theory we would need about 10,000 people to agree to live in a controlled environment for about 40 years, of which x number of people would be smokers through out and smoke at a given pace, and x number of people would be none smokers. as you can see from the above this is a theory that will never be proven. The fact is that your cars spit out 1000's of more carcinogens than any cigarette you smoke, but you will never se me or any other physician telling you to quit driving, until we have a viable substitute. Then you will hear how your are killing yourselves by driving a combustion engine vehicle.

Downlimit- My so-called smoking example is called an "analogy,"not a "theory. " Didn't they teach you the difference between an analogy and a theory in medical school? So, are you saying smoking does not cause lung cancer? If so, then why would you discourage it if science cannot prove it?

The World Health Organization (WHO) has been publicly accused of suppressing information. Its opponents say that WHO has withheld from publication its own report that was aimed at but supposedly failed to scientifically prove that there is an association between passive smoking, or environmental tobacco smoke (ETS), and a number of diseases, lung cancer in particular. Both statements are untrue.

The study in question is a case-control study on the effects of ETS on lung cancer risk in European populations, which has been carried out over the last seven years by 12 research centres in 7 European countries under the leadership of WHO's cancer research branch -- the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

The results of this study, which have been completely misrepresented in recent news reports, are very much in line with the results of similar studies both in Europe and elsewhere: passive smoking (ie., breathing in someone else's smoke) causes lung cancer in non-smokers (emphasis added).

The bottom line is that smoking causes lung cancer because there are substances within tobacco that are known to cause cancer.

 

[jjmatti]

Neil,

My 2 cents worth....
I have a 200 gallon (8 feet long )that I added a powder Blue too.. I have had him for a year now and he is doing very well. The PB is about 4" . He thinks he is the boss of the tank though and trys to bully a 12" Naso and a 8" Hippo all the time.
But to answer your question -- I have seen people try to put to Acan's tangs together and it is not good.. not at 200 or even 300 gallons...
Anyone who has two of them together in a tank with that volume should consider themselves lucky.. I am a firm believer in that fish have a personality like everyonther animal. You might get lucky and buy some that get along.. OR you might wake up to find 2 dead fish .. It is a gamble .. Thats it..
If you have the money to waste then go for it.. Just make sure you watch them carefully and if they start in on each other you pull one and give him to someone who can care for it properly..

 

[jjackson]

my powder blue just was swimming very very mad circles when I added some blue green reef chromis.... they were close in color to him.... I would be afraid to add something his shape.

 

[neilbowden]

thanks guys.......great views so far, not sure what to do been lookin at pb & achilles at my lfs for two weeks.....the guy there is great & is lookin to pair them off together in a 5 foot to see how there get along....will make my decision then! hopefully

 

[taflaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7109390#post7109390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jjmatti
Neil,


If you have the money to waste then go for it.. Just make sure you watch them [Powder Blue & Achilles] carefully and if they start in on each other you pull one and give him to someone who can care for it properly..

I agree with jjmatti about not mixing them together. However, if you have the money to waste, buy a much larger system or place each Tang in a separate aquarium as opposed to placing them in the same 180/200 gallon system.

The Powder Blue is not easily kept by hobbyists period. The same applies to the Achilles Tang. A high level of care is required for both Tangs and, in my opinion, it is not fair (to the fish) to house either Tang with other Tangs of similar shape or color in such small systems. Both Tangs are from the same Acanthuridae family and both Tangs have similar shapes. I would further recommend that only experienced hobbyists or public aquariums purchase either Tang to begin with. Good Luck!

 

[downlimit]

Taflaw- I am aware of what analogies are and no that is not part of medical school training, you should have learned that during your basic English courses, both in high school and college. I would simply suggest to you that before you speak about a subject, you should also consider that inevitably there will always be someone, that will know much more than you both in practice and intellectual knowledge, and instead of arguing with them, you should try and learn to elevate your own scientific knowledge. Furthermore, you have the right to think whatever you want regarding the subjects discussed herein, but you should keep in mind that this forum, is built for the open discussion on the proper care and livelihood of the tank inhabitants we want and care for, therefore arguing and picking fights with anyone here is discouraged, we are all here to learn from one another, not to try and brainwash each other into our way of thinking. If you want to believe in every news article you read about WHO or any other branch of the medical establishment, or for that matter the reef community that is your business. All we ask is that if you can cooperate with the rest of us, your input will be welcome, but understand that nothing here is or should be based on attacks or criticism of anyone in particular. Good luck to you

 

[taflaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7110836#post7110836 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downlimit
I would simply suggest to you that before you speak about a subject, you should also consider that inevitably there will always be someone, that will know much more than you both in practice and intellectual knowledge, and instead of arguing with them, you should try and learn to elevate your own scientific knowledge.

downlimit- Maybe you should take your own advice because you were the one who started arguing with me. I simply stated an opinion, which is based on my personal experience and research done by other advanced hobbyists/experts, like Bob Fenner, and stated that it is not a good idea to house Powder Blue Tangs with other Tangs of similar shape or color such as the Powder Brown Tang, Achilles Tang, or Gold Rim Tang, unless you have a very large system. Other people also responded to this thread with their own experiences, and even the new hobbyist who started this thread stated that he didn't think it was a good idea to house both Tangs together, but wanted to know about any success stories. As I recall, you responded to my "opinion" with a bunch of bs about how misguided I was because " [my] statistics never stated how this research was done, in what size tanks were these animals placed, or what type of husbandry was taken, etc." Then you went on to explain how smart you think you are because you went to school for 10 years to become a doctor. I have a doctorate degree as well, but Reef Central is not the place or forum to expect everyone who has an opinion that is different than yours to be verified by scientific data and statistics. I can list numerous sources that state that keeping Powder Blue Tangs with Achilles Tangs in a small system is not recommended, but unfortunately, not everyone researches the level of care and compatibility requirements before purchasing these demanding fish to begin with. I have a Powder Blue Tang and a Mimic Tang, but both fish are kept in separate systems because they are not compatible.

 

[downlimit]

LOL

 

[taflaw]

advice from credible sources

advice from credible sources

Here are some quotes from some other knowledgeable people/sources that may give you some guidance in your endeavor.

*"Similar appearing fishes, and ones utilizing about the same
ecological niches should not be placed with Powder Blue Tangs"- Bob Fenner, The Powder Blue Tang, Not Easily Kept (WetWebMedia.com);

*"The Powder Blue Tang is often very aggressive with all other tangs but there is the occasional exception (very rare). The larger the system the less likely the problems with aggression you will have if housed with multiple tangs" -from Marine Depot (marinedepotlive.com);

* "The Powder Blue Tang should be the only tang in the tank except in
very large systems" - Doctors Foster & Smith

* "The Powder Blue Tang is best reserved for the more advanced
aquarists ....has high likelihood of problems resulting from improper
collection and handling"-John Tullock, Natural Reef Aquariums (TFH
Publications);

*" We recommend that only experienced hobbyists or public aquariums
purchase Powder Blue Tangs. Do not keep more than one per aquarium, and
do not house with other Tangs of similar shape or color. We cannot
guarantee the Powder Blue Tang after arrival due to the high level of
care this species requires" -Vivid Aquariums;

*"Don't you just hate it when the fish [can't] read the same books, and talk to the same people!"- Eric R (WetWebMedica.com)

*"The Powder Blue Tang is quite a sensitive species" ... Les Holliday,Coral Reefs-A Global View by Diver and Aquarist (Tetra Press);

*Examples of similar appearing Tangs that should not be placed
together, include:" The Goldrim Tang is very similar, but more durable than its close relative, the Powder Brown Surgeonfish (Acanthurus japonicus). It also has similar characteristics as that of an Achilles Tang (Acanthurus achilles) and Powder Blue Surgeonfish (Acanthurus leucosternon), because they are all so closely related" -Stan & Debbie Hauter (About Saltwater Aquariums);

*"It is critical that you are responsible and provide tangs with the
appropriate swim room. You have to realize that a 240 gallon tank does not duplicate the swim territory of a single tang in the wild so we are really providing the minimum" -Craig Manoukian, Reef Sanctuary


Hope everything works out for you, neilbowden.

 

[downlimit]

neilbowden- simple answer to your question is yes, it can be done. It all depends on your own apptitude and ability. If you are going to guide your decision based on DISCLAIMERS from retailers, then no you should never intermix fish that look similar. However, I have attached a pick in which you will see a naso tang, several surgeon fish, a pbt and others similar to the achilles, so it boils down to you, can you do it, do you want to do it, and do you feel comfortable doing it. If you dont have the time to provide them with the husbandry needed, dont do it. If you do go for it.

 

[marrowmuse]

It should be noted that the above pic is of Steve Weast's 850 gallon. 4.5 times the size of neilbowden's tank.

 

[taflaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7124658#post7124658 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marrowmuse
It should be noted that the above pic is of Steve Weast's 850 gallon. 4.5 times the size of neilbowden's tank.

It should also be noted that Naso and Pacific Blue Tangs are usually not aggressive towards other tank mates nor do they share close similarities in shape or color like the Powder Brown, Achilles, Powder Blue or the Gold Rim share.

 

[taflaw]

neilbowden- from a conscientious hobbyist's point of view, your endeavor should probably not be attempted at this time. A 200 gallon aquarium is really too small for a Powder Blue and Achilles Tang to peacefully coexist. The few people who have had success with both of these fish in the same system have several things in common: 1)experience; 2) lots of mature live rock/reef environment; 3) excellent filtration/ water quality; and 4) the fish are placed in very LARGE systems (emphasis added). You would be much better off selecting either a dissimilar looking Acanthurus Tang (like a Naso or Pacific Blue) or pairing your Powder Blue or Achilles with a Tang from a different family. Also keep in mind that the Powder Blue and Achilles both require a high level of care to begin with and are really better suited for advanced hobbyists. Achilles, like their name implies, die very easily in captivity. Most Powder Blue Tangs will not make it through collection and importation to begin with. Those few that do mostly die in the wholesalers and stores. Of the very few that are left, most die in hobbyist's tanks.

 

[taflaw]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7127151#post7127151 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taflaw
You would be much better off selecting either a dissimilar looking Acanthurus Tang (like a Naso or Pacific Blue) or pairing your Powder Blue or Achilles with a Tang from a different family.

Actually, the Naso Tang (Naso lituratus) and Pacific Blue Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) are not only dissimilar in color and shape from Powder Blue & Achilles Tangs but they also come from a different genus (i.e., not Acanthurus) within the Acanthuridae family.