Acrylic fabrication questions? I can help!

I can't seem to stop with the questions... If I get a piece cut for the side, since its basically just a 2x2 square it doesn't seem like that would be a big deal, would I be able to lay the tank on its side, and re-seam it the whole way around? Leaving the existing piece in place that is.. I care about strength not appearance since the side is going to basically be against a wall...
Would leaving the original piece leave room for the crack to continue to the front and back, even with a full replacement on the inside?
 
does the patch gain any structural strength if I manage a way to attach to the front as well as the side? I'm imagining the bicycle tire, and having trouble translating it to a square (it was a great example for what you were conveying, but imagining the same forces on a square is leading to problems for me..What I'm struggling with with that is whether the anchor to the front strengthens the patch by not allowing it to shift, or if it ends up weakening things because as the water tries to push the patch through the weak point, it would pull at seams for the front and the bottom...

It would help, but you might have trouble with the fabrication part. If you leave the factory edge against the front you should be fine.....


I can't seem to stop with the questions... If I get a piece cut for the side, since its basically just a 2x2 square it doesn't seem like that would be a big deal, would I be able to lay the tank on its side, and re-seam it the whole way around? Leaving the existing piece in place that is.. I care about strength not appearance since the side is going to basically be against a wall...
Would leaving the original piece leave room for the crack to continue to the front and back, even with a full replacement on the inside?

1) You'll have a tough time replacing the whole side.... it's difficult to cut accurately, to dress the site, and then to redo that panel... Acrylic is not like glass. Not at all.

2) The rest of the panel is not damaged... only the impact point. Perhaps a different example would help. Take a paper bag.... get a pen or pencil. Stab the paper bag on the side. Now imagine filling it with sand, popcorn, rice, whatever.... the contents would leak through the hole you just made. Now, how would you patch the hole? I would glue a new piece of paper to the inside.... wouldn't you? Acrylic is the same way. Leave a little overlap, make it look decent.... if you can glue to the front do it.

The only difference is that acrylic is thick, so we can melt some of your cracks with really thin solvent.... before we glue on a patch for the sake of over-fixing it.

I seriously doubt your tank will blow apart. Water is not dynamite. I once had the displeasure of finding my 27' sailboat filling with water. My imagination and fantasies had a flooding boat as being really dramatic. It wasn't. It was like filling a pool, a slow event. If anything the boat was more stable 2/3rds full of water. We pumped it out, found the offending hose and clamped it shut. Insurance bought me a new teak floor and everyone was happy. The sailboat weighed 8,000 pounds and had a 3/4" hole in it.... it wasn't shooting through the floor or anything like you see in the movies. It was gurgling in slowly but relentlessly. I suspect any leak from your tank would be slow and relentless..... not catastrophic.

The chemical weld is as strong as the acrylic... so the seam isn't coming apart. The cracks are impact damage.... think of it as crazing on steroids. If you melt the acrylic, some of them will go away, forming a water tight seal.

As I mentioned before, if it were my tank I would WO3 the inside, the outside, and then I'd fill it with water and slosh it around with my hand real hard or enlist a child to play in the water. I'd give it a few days and if nothing happened I'd install the tank.

If I found a leak, I'd use WO16 on it next.....

and the, and only then if it failed to fix, or if a piece came loose, I'd put a patch over it.

Let me make another analogy.... if you had a 1.5" bulkhead you would have a 1.5" hole right? If you wanted it gone, you'd simply cut something slightly bigger and glue it in... right? Well, the "hole" in this case is microscopic..... so it may not be necessary to put a patch on.

If it doesn't make sense just ask and one of us will try to explain. There are no bad questions...
 
James, I have MC and AA and a few 1L glass bottles also. I was planning to mix the MC and 5% AA in the 1L bottle, but is there a time frame in which this should be used if tightly capped, or can it be stored indefinitely?
 
James, I have MC and AA and a few 1L glass bottles also. I was planning to mix the MC and 5% AA in the 1L bottle, but is there a time frame in which this should be used if tightly capped, or can it be stored indefinitely?
I don't mix them for storage. MC is pretty volatile, AA is not. So some the MC can evaporate out leaving a weak solution and you wouldn't know it.
I mix what I'm going to use for a coupla days and that's it.

What one "can" do, and what one (IMO) "should" do, are two separate things :)

James
 
Well I wondered about that but then remembered that MC bond has MC and AA too so I thought it wouldn't be a problem.

I guess I'll get smaller bottles to mix and use the 1L bottles for keeping smaller amounts of each handy instead of having to break out the 1 gallon jug every time I want to mix!!!
 
I was going to make a joke that you should use plastic bottles so they won't break:). But seriously aren't all the chemical flammable? If the aren't flammable I guess you can ignore the rest. Look at the rules on gas cans. Is there any plastics that won't melt with these? What about steel cans?
 
The bottle of acetic acid (99.7%) has two big diamond labels on it that say "corrosive" and "flammable". So no to steel. MC comes in steel cans (weld-on or SC-125, for example) mine came in glass but you can't mix them together in the steel can or it will corrode and you get red weld-on. I found that out. $5 down the drain. Not literally.

I have a smaller bottle of AA and it is in plastic. And the applicator bottles are plastic, but I don't believe they're meant for long-term storage, just quick use and then pour them out. At least that's what I do.
 
If it ships that way it must be the safest. Not what I would have expected. but thanks for the information. Since a lot of people read this with little knowledge of acrylic (like me - there are more out there right?), I would hate to see problems like having to put a fire out with a fish tank.
 
I had someone pick it up for me but they are both in thick heavy glass jugs in a box with 2 layers of 1/2" corrugated cardboard. I think I could drop the package off the roof of my house onto the driveway and it wouldn't break.
 
Well I wondered about that but then remembered that MC bond has MC and AA too so I thought it wouldn't be a problem.
I theory, it isn't a problem. In practice, it can be. We've all had cans of PVC cement that have gone bad with time- just the THF evaporating out and leaving the monomer to harden. Same principle with the solvent solutions.

As for MC being flammable.. yeah, kinda, but absolutely nothing I would worry about. PVC cement is *far* more flammable - exponentially so, yet "we" don't see an issue with that ;)

James
 
Hey Acrylics,
Have you ever bonded PVC into an acrylic sheet? Did it give you any grief over time?

I'm contemplating eliminating bulkheads on the tank I'm working on. I've rigged up a test sheet of 1/2" material and welded a 2 inch and 1 inch fitting in. It looks pretty solid.

I can't get WO40 easily, but WO16 seems to work fine for a functional joint. It does seem to create bubbles regardless.

I'm using a West System syringe with built in applicator... works great for managing WO16 or WO4 btw.

My plan is to weld a slip to thread fitting into the sheet. It started off as a space issue, but frankly functionality and economics come into play. A solvent welded joint should be permanently waterproof. Some of my bulkheads would be difficult to get at if they needed to be tightened down the road.

The biggest risk I can think of is mechanical failure of the pipe which will be secured.
 
Hey Acrylics,
Have you ever bonded PVC into an acrylic sheet? Did it give you any grief over time?

I'm contemplating eliminating bulkheads on the tank I'm working on. I've rigged up a test sheet of 1/2" material and welded a 2 inch and 1 inch fitting in. It looks pretty solid.

I can't get WO40 easily, but WO16 seems to work fine for a functional joint. It does seem to create bubbles regardless.

I'm using a West System syringe with built in applicator... works great for managing WO16 or WO4 btw.

My plan is to weld a slip to thread fitting into the sheet. It started off as a space issue, but frankly functionality and economics come into play. A solvent welded joint should be permanently waterproof. Some of my bulkheads would be difficult to get at if they needed to be tightened down the road.

The biggest risk I can think of is mechanical failure of the pipe which will be secured.
 
I have attempted to weld gray PVC sheet to acrylic with WO16 and it "looked" good but that means nothing, because I was able to break the joint clean and the PVC sheet looked like nothing had happened to it - WO16 does NOT bite into PVC IMO (I don't care what IPS tells you - they're wrong) and it would be a big mistake to use anything but WO40. It's as easy as anything on the internet is to get. Just not cheap. But use nothing else for PVC to acrylic IMO.
 
Anyhow.... I think for bond clarity, 40 is the way to go. for bond quality, 16 is the way to go. Here's my thinking. 16 contains solvents that dissolve both. 40 isn't solvent based. It's a monomer and a catalyst. You mix it and it thermosets into acrylic. That's why it works good to fill holes and bond large sheets.

I did a test panel tonite with 16. I roughed up the PVC with 150 grit paper til it was rough to the touch (only takes a moment to take the finish off). I drilled holes that were as close the size of the fittings as I could find.

I used a West System applicator Syringe with tip to suck the WO16 from the tube and then apply it to the joint. It worked extremely well..... I also used the same syringe for WO4. 16 destroys the syringe because you can't get it out... 4 I just take the plunger out and leave it to dry.

Syringes are 12 for $18 at West Marine... where bargains are not to be found.... I also picked up some mixing sticks for epoxy and they can be used to spread the 16 and it flakes off when you are done.... ;)

I'm giving the bond a day, but so far it looks bullet proof. I plan to thoroughly torture test it and make a decision on what I will do.

I will attempt to break out the 1 inch fitting to the point of failure. This includes putting a piece of pipe on it and torquing it hard, and taking a hammer to it with it in the sheet trying to knock it out.

The 2 inch will be given a similar treatment.

16 had a surprising gap fill quality to it. The joint looks like crap, lots of little tiny bubbles, but beyond that I think it's very water tight. It's only got to seal and hold the fitting in there and I think it will do that and then some.

As for IPS, I trust them. Their tech support folks have no reason to BS me. It's in their interest to sell WO 40 actually. A friend of mine in the pool industry explained it like this: Contrators and applicators call IPS with application questions. If IPS gives them bad info or tells them it will work when it won't... commercial projects go South. Litigation results from angry customers..... Therefore IPS won't endorse something if it is likely to come back to bite them.

The answer I got wasn't a "... well it can work" It was a resounding "Yes that's the adhesive, it will work great". I explicitly asked about aging and torque loads and was advised that cohesive failure will occur before adhesive failure... meaning the material will fail before the joint. Specifically, the PVC fitting will break first.

What I'm looking at right now is taking a 2x1 fitting and solvent welding it in. This gives a large surface area with the 2inch fitting, and the 1 inch threaded surface is repairable if needed. Worst case I would drill it out to a bulkhead if something horrible happened.
 
Hotpuppy,
I've welded pvc to acrylic before with 16, years ago. It was ugly and I knew better, but it held. BUT I used the flat half of a union with a nice large gluing area, not just the end of a coupling.
FWIW
 
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