Adding a sump. Need help with the siphon aspects

[WXB]

So I am finally going to put in a sump to help maintain things. I want to do a siphon going into the sump and a pump return back into the tank. That is what I want to do. My one and only concern is the what if the power goes out and the pump return doesn't get the water going into the tank OUT? I have a can filter I can have the tank water go from the tank to the can the pushed into the sump then pushed back from the sump to the tank. I think this would not be a problem if the power goes out. I THINK.. I was worried about even putting a HOB refugium on the tank.

I do have a 30 gallon tank to put the sump in in case i do run into a problem. Its a 40gal breeder. I just do not want to have my water line run out of my main tank flood my floor. I am just tired of not having my large skimmer hooked up. Any ideas and dos and don'ts would be nice. As for a auto shut off valve i can not find one other than ones for RODI top off values.

any help would be welcomed.

 

[reeftivo]

hang on overflow rated for the return pump will work fine.

You just need to make sure that you have enough height in the sump to allow for residual fill when the power is off. When the power is shut off, the tank level will equalize with the lowest level of the overflow and stop draining once it reaches that level. The sump, depending on size, will have the water level slightly rise a few inches until the DT level equalizes with the overflow.

Hope that makes sense.

As long as you don't run you sump at too high a water level and leave yourself some room for overflow when powers out, you should have no issues.

 

[WXB]

So I need a HOB overflow for best success? That's what I was thinking. I was having trouble deciding what return pump to use. I have quite a few. I didn't want to push in more water than was coming out. The level part I understand the need for wiggle room. I was wanting to do this without buying more things. Thinking about it the overflow makes best since.

 

[reeftivo]

CPR makes some good affordable units.

Glass Holes (LOL) has great prices as well. They sell complete kits on their site but you should be able to get just the overflow from them if you send them a PM
http://www.glass-holes.com/Complete-Overflow-Kits_c3.htm

 

[wildman926]

You do not want a CPR overflow. It needs a pump to keep the siphon intact, and you can not clean it, so when it cruds up with algae, gunk, etc., it will slow in it's flow and then the return pump can overflow the tank.

A standard overflow box with 1-2 1" u-tubes will be all you need. I like using PVC to plumb it, and use the Herbie overflow. There is a thread here on that.

I have never lost siphon on my overflow, and if I did, I use a modified pump stopper kit from Aquahub.com to shut of the return pump if it did.

 

[Mpfaff77]

Go bigger on your return pump. You can put a "T" in your plumbing and ball valve to divert some water back into your sump. If your overflow is rated at 600 gph look for a return pump about 700gph but take in account for the height of your tank. Check out esshops overflow. I have mine running for years and never lost siphon.

 

[WXB]

I am a little confused about the "T"?? so you are saying have one go to the tank and the other go back into the sump? I have a Odyssea 700 GPH and a 400 GPH.I was also wanting to put my canister filter intake out from the sump and back into the tank. to do it this way what overflow box should I get? the Esshops 1000 GPH 1200 GPH or the 1800 GPH. The canister filter is 270 GPH. Or if i get the two U tubes have one go to the sump and the other to the Canister filter just have a shut off? or should both U tubes go to the sump? I am not soo much worried about loosing the siphon but with the possible chances of an over flow.. with the overflow box that should not be an issue if the power goes out.. correct?

 

[GrampaDon]

I am a little confused about the "T"?? so you are saying have one go to the tank and the other go back into the sump? I have a Odyssea 700 GPH and a 400 GPH.I was also wanting to put my canister filter intake out from the sump and back into the tank. to do it this way what overflow box should I get? the Esshops 1000 GPH 1200 GPH or the 1800 GPH. The canister filter is 270 GPH. Or if i get the two U tubes have one go to the sump and the other to the Canister filter just have a shut off? or should both U tubes go to the sump? I am not soo much worried about loosing the siphon but with the possible chances of an over flow.. with the overflow box that should not be an issue if the power goes out.. correct?

One thing at a time. You want to drain the tank using a U-tube overflow then return it using a Odyssea pump "and" the canister filter pump at the same time ?????? Am i understanding right.?

^^I hope not because that is a bad plan.
You can use the canister filter. But keep the intake and return from it both in the tank.
Then separately use a U-tube overflow box to drain down to the sump. And pumped back to the display using your Odyssea pump.

 

[WXB]

One of the two U tubes will go to the Can filter as an intake. the other will go to the sump. The canister return line will go back into the tank at one end. the return pump will will return to the tank at the other end.
OR should the canister take water from the sump then return back into the tank. This is the only two options I am looking at and think I and do. what would work best

 

[TimeConsumer]

Okay, your train of thought is going everywhere right now. So I'm going to address the basics first.

The flood issues from overflows are as follows:
1) losing the siphon
2) overflowing sump

When your siphon breaks, or a pipe gets clogged, your return pump will continue to pump all the water from your return section in to the display. For many people, this leads to an overflow. There are two ways to prevent this. First, you can design your sump so the return section holds less water than what is needed to overflow your display. For example, in your 40 breeder let's say your waterline is 1" below the rim of the tank. This means you can fit 2.75 gallons of water in your tank before it floods onto your floor. Second, you can rig a few float switches to turn off the return pump when the water level in the display gets too high.

To prevent your sump from overflowing, you want to ensure that the sump can handle any water that is backsiphoned when the return pump is shut off. The best way to limit the amount that flows back into the sump is to drill a hole into plumbing of the return just below the waterline.

Further, if using a HOB siphon overflow I recommend getting a Lifereef. It is a very high quality unit that holds a siphon very well, even after power outages.

Now that we have that out of the way, lets address the canister filter. You mentioned two ways you wanted to plumb it, and I'll address each in turn.

Option A: plumbing directly from the overflow. No. The water from your overflow will be mixed with air, canister filters are designed to run with no air. If it gets air in it you will have reduced performance, reduced lifespan, and a lot of noise.

Option B: The canister filter intake will be from the sump and the return will be in the DT. No. That is going to add a lot of head pressure to the canister filter and reduce it's flow to a trickle.

I would recommend Option C: forget about the canister filter. It's not necessary. Stick to the basics in filtration. Live rock and sand for biological filtration, skimmer and filter socks for mechanical filtration, and a gfo/gac reactor for chemical filtration. The canister filter is completely unnecessary, leave them for freshwater tanks.

 

[fishgate]

My tank can hold all the water in the sump return section if the siphon breaks and my sump can hold all the water that siphons out if the pump fails. I have tested this. Also my overflow (eshoppes) has never lost siphon due to the design.

If you must use the canister filter, use it in the sump. Have it draw water from one section and return water to the return section where the pump it located. I have a UV filter that is set up this way and it works great.

 

[WXB]

Ok thank you for a the great information. I did not think of loosing the siphon and the sump flooding my main tank. That's why I am asking questions.
Couple things I wanna clear up. I think I now have a good idea of what I am going to do to do this.

Second, you can rig a few float switches to turn off the return pump when the water level in the display gets too high.

To prevent your sump from overflowing, you want to ensure that the sump can handle any water that is backsiphoned when the return pump is shut off. The best way to limit the amount that flows back into the sump is to drill a hole into plumbing of the return just below the waterline.

Number one. The float switch. I have been looking and looking but I cannot find one and where to buy it. any ideas on that. I do want to be able to turn off the sump pump if there becomes a problem.

Number to you talked about is drilling a hole into the plumbing below the water line.. Can you explain this a bit more.

I will keep my canister filter. I like them for fresh and salt. I do however like the idea of just having it suck from and to the sump. I will do that. I am just tired of playing with the canister plumbing in the tank.

SO as far as the overflow box I have heard lifereef and esshops. I understand U tubes are the best so I will go with that. My big question is what size? If i have a 700 GPH return pump?

 

[jprime84]

Go bigger on your return pump. You can put a "T" in your plumbing and ball valve to divert some water back into your sump. If your overflow is rated at 600 gph look for a return pump about 700gph but take in account for the height of your tank. Check out esshops overflow. I have mine running for years and never lost siphon.

+1 on eshoppes HOB overflows, and ball valves and a T to divert excess flow back into the sump.

The thing to remember with a sump is that the water level in your tank is constant and varies in the sump. If you leave enough room in your sump to take the flow of water from your DT until the water line drops below the teeth in the overflow, then you will not have problems. It's easy to test by pulling the plug on your return pump and watching what happens. If you have too much water in the system, remove some.

 

[wildman926]

I did not think of loosing the siphon and the sump flooding my main tank.

I have never lost siphon on my overflow, and if I did, I use a modified pump stopper kit from Aquahub.com to shut of the return pump if it did.

That is why I said this

HERE is where you can get the pump stopper kit. Cheap insurance at $35.

 

[jprime84]

Number to you talked about is drilling a hole into the plumbing below the water line.. Can you explain this a bit more.

think of it like siphoning your tank with a gravel vac. If that siphon is going, and the air can't get to it, it will continue to siphon until the air can. When your return pump turns off, that return line will behave just like a siphon because there is no air in it. Water will begin to flow back into the sump through the return plumbing.

If you have a hole in the return line (can be above the water, but you might hear a trickle) then as soon as the pump stops, air will get into the line and stop the siphon right away. You won't have as much water go back into the sump from the DT.

 

[WXB]

I understand how it all works. I just want to make sure I am not missing anything that can ensure I have to flooding issues. So between the shut off valve the double U over flow box running a T and drilling a whole in the pipe right above the water line at the sump, I think I have a clear picture of what to do. Any other tips, tricks or equipment that will ensure the best success?
Thanks you all.

 

[fishgate]

Well hell. I got home to a minor flood. I have never once lost my siphon but today I did. As I said I tested this scenario and my sump can hold the tank water with ease and the tank can hold the sump volume with ease. However! I recently did this UV filter modification to draw from the main sump chamber (mine is a two chamber) and discharge to the return chamber. So when the siphon stopped, the return pump pumped until the chamber was below the impeller level but the UV pump meanwhile was continuing to dump water from the main sump area into the return section. Now this isn't much more water, but it is like another gallon or so. So I had a gallon of SW to clean up when I got home.

So bottom line, DON'T take my advice on the canister filter setup! It is flawed!

 

[TimeConsumer]

I understand how it all works. I just want to make sure I am not missing anything that can ensure I have to flooding issues. So between the shut off valve the double U over flow box running a T and drilling a whole in the pipe right above the water line at the sump, I think I have a clear picture of what to do. Any other tips, tricks or equipment that will ensure the best success?
Thanks you all.

Unless you plan on running more than 700gph through your HOB overflow, don't get one with dual u-tubes. Additional tubes may give you a sense of additional security, but it will only cause more problems. Siphon overflows have issues with air bubbles collecting and eventually breaking the siphon. For this reason the u-tube design works well by providing a very fast rate of flow to stop the bubbles collecting at the top of the tube. If you add in another tube it will simply slow the waterflow in each tube making them prone to collecting bubbles.

For your 40g breeder you probably want around 200 - 400gph turnover through your sump. If you tried to run that with two u-tubes the siphon would break within a day from the bubbles. Again, I highly recommend Lifereef, I have never lost a siphon. The u-tubes are made of bent acrylic and are very high quality. So their 600gph version will work very well with your 700gph pump. After head loss it will probably be pumping 400gph.

 

[WXB]

OH WOW That is too bad sorry to hear about the flood. Minor or not its still a pain to deal with. I will just keep the can right where it is. If it isnt broke don't fix it I guess.
I do have a smaller pump thats 400 GPH if that would be better, or stick with doing the single U tube at the 600 GPH and use the 700 GPH return pump.

Using a single U tube is a good idea. I understand why two would be nice and how it would also turn into a problem. This is why I am asking. I have gone 7 years without ever doing a sump. I think now is the time and I am happy with all of the information. My biggest problem was finding a cut off switch for the return pump I could not for the life find one. Thanks for the site to find that. Good price for piece of mind if you ask me. I am just trying to cover worst case problems with power outages and such. My wife has no desire to deal with problems while I deploy. The less she has to care about the better. Thanks all.

 

[jprime84]

The discussion caused me to go back and check my overflow last night. I did have a small bubble pocket forming in my u tube. I was able to wiggle the tube around for a bit and the bubbles were pushed through. I guess it's the type of thing you should check every couple months.