AEFW new info and photos

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7647607#post7647607 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by impur
The O tort had full PE after about 15 min. Looks great today!!

clkwrk - can you give me a little info on the procedure you used? Duration? Number of dips? Thanks a ton! I'm glad to hear someone beat them with dips, gives me some hope!
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Sorry I missed this . I started by treating indivdual corals and then I decide to reaquacape . When I did that I treated to 10g tanks stuffed full of layers of corals. I treated them all at once.Pulling out every acro crab prior. About 3 weeks later I decided to upgrade tanks so I started dipping colonies once again for good measure. Then once again I treated all my corals while I had them out for my tank swap. I have since did one more round on every coral. This was about 4 weeks ago that I did the last one.
 
just wondering if anyone has tried fw eating nudibraches?

seems if we could find a natural predator it would be easier to treat with them than chemicals.
 
Do a search chads29. Suggested and tried more than once and at least once in a controlled setting. No go. The general search for a natural predator has been discussed multiple times, and there are a couple of anecdotal once being bandied about, like the ornate wrasse (often sold as a Christmas wrasse) and a few other wrasses, all with mixed results.
 
The problem with natural predators is that they will most likely never erradicate the pest. Therefore, if you know you are infected you will not be able to trade or sell corals (ethically).

IMO, the FW's are getting out of hand. More and more people coming out and saying they are infected all the time. And I bet there are literally thousands that do not even know they are infected. I think we need to start looking at the source. And I'm not talking about where they are collected (the AEFW's have been in the ocean all along). I'm talking the wholesalers. How often do wholesalers clean and bleach out their systems? I have no idea but I'm guessing it is pretty close to never! They get a sick acro with AEFW's and they don't sell it because it is dying. It sits in the system and as corals are moved in and out of those systems daily, the AEFW's are spreading at will. Eventually, the AEFW populations in the wholesaler's tanks become denser and denser as they sit on sicker acros that are infected. All the while, the AEFW's keep spreading to more and more corals going through the system. I know we as hobbyists are doing our part but what about the wholesalers?
 
We will probably have little say in what the wholesalers do. It will be up to us to make the extra effort.

Our only real defense as I can see is longterm quarantine. This was my mistake! I hastily added some new frags after a swap a couple of month's ago. I bought a single frag from someone I didn't know.

The quarantine would probably be less time with frags as eggs would be easier to find on a 1" or 2" piece. Colonies would be more difficult and require a longer quarantine with a much more aggressive dipping procedure to cover all the nooks and cranny's.

After the trouble I have the decision has been made that anything new going in the tank will spend a minimum of 2 month's in quarantine no exceptions.

Carl
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7683343#post7683343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CarlC
We will probably have little say in what the wholesalers do. It will be up to us to make the extra effort.
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I think we have more power than one might think. Not too long ago there was a big problem with a lot of clams coming in with pinched mantle disease. Barry at ClamsDirect narrowed down the issue to a small number of holding facilities and spoke with them about it and, IIRC, stopped ordering from them until they took proactive measures to do something about it.

If we could just get 1 or 2 wholesalers to do something then most people would start ordering their acros throught them because they will be more likely to be healthier and less likely to have AEFW's. This would cause the other wholesalers to lose business and hopefully follow suit. I don't know, maybe this is just wishfull thinking. It is strange that these AEFW's have become such a problem in the US the last 1.5 years. It has been a problem over in Europe for much longer than that. I don't think it has anything to do with areas of collection as I tend to think this predator is confined to one particular reef in the ocean. It probably has a lot to do with people having them in their tanks and then selling/trading frags from their tanks. This has been addressed as we hobbyists are doing something about it. I also think it has something to do with the wholesaler facilities being allowed to become breeding grounds for these pests. Unfortunately, they are probably not doing anything about it. I'm not asking that they treat all of their corals as that takes time and time is money. I'm just thinking maybe it would help if they cleaned out their systems every once in a while. I don't know, maybe I'm way off here or maybe just wishful thinking. Of course, in the end, it is the hobbyists responsibility to QT everything that goes into their tanks.
 
I agree that something needs to be done to make the wholesalers more responsible and aware of the problem this is causing in the hobby.

I have just started my 2nd Levamisole treatment today in QT. I have lost one frag so far from the treatments in QT and when I pulled all of the Acro's out of the main tank last week, I found about 3 more acro's that showed damage from the AEFW's on sides that were not visible while viewing the tank. I will NEVER add another SPS coral without going into QT as the last bug I need is the Monti Nudi's too!

Sara
 
I hear ya, Sara. I took out the red bugs, then got the AEFW's. Several months after trreatment, I have no signs of AEFW's, but now have found monti nudis on one cap... All monti's are now in the QTwaiting for Levamisole treatments (one down, three to go, then it'll be a several month waiting game before the monti's move back to the display). I have only seen them on one cap, but scrubbed everything else like they were covered. All rock from the display is coming out for cooking (issues with razor caulerpa, mainly, but I'm sure a good cooking will help, regardless-besides I have 200# of rock in rubbermaid tubs behind the couch in the living room that needs a new home;)). Didn't lose a single monti in the first treatment (lost alot of acros throughout the course, so I'm trying to figure out why...). The only pest I've avoided are zoa pests (knock on wood). Nothing goes anywhere near the display without 4-6 weeks in QT ever again...

It would be nice to get some sort of preventive measure done at the wholesalers, but I think thy are going to look at cost and added labor and not want to do anything. If we could get a few wholesalers to start the requests, there may be a chance, but until there is money pressure (as Travis states in justification), they will likely not see the need. I think we all agree it is our responsibility to catch these things before we enter them into our systems, but it would be nice if the levels were at least maintained and not allowed to continue multiplying in holding vessels. I think a very large percentage of people have some sort of pest and don't even know about it due to predators that keep it in check. Then the conditions change when someone else gets the coral and doesn't have the same predators in the tank to keep the pest populations in check. I've always compared them to STD's, and the way they are getting passed around now, you'd think we were in a time of free love again;)...
 
Just a warning for others, I have been doing some thinking and until we know more about these guys (especially their eggs) I think we should NOT be covering the eggs with superglue. I did this during my treatments and now that I think about it, what happens if down the road, that superglue gets chipped off that area (superglue comes off pretty easily)? It could be that once the eggs are again exposed to water they will hatch. I'm thinking of it in relation to brine shrimp eggs. You can go out and buy a bottle of brine eggs and just add the saltwater and they will hatch. It is possible that the AEFW eggs could do the same. So I think for now we are all better off to just let the eggs hatch out during the treatments and kill the babies with the treatments rather than risking the possiblility of the eggs hatching out later on in the display.

I know it has been posted earlier (and I even reposted it as I took it as fact) that freshly hatched FW's can lay eggs again within only a few days. This is just my belief, but I don't think this is possible. The babies are obviously going to be smaller than the eggs and will take time before they grow to a size where they are large enough to lay something the size of an egg. Not sure how long this would take but I'm guessing longer than a week, maybe even longer than a month. Either way, I think if you are treating weekly, once the eggs do hatch out, you will kill the babies before they get a chance to lay eggs again. Just my thoughts and others I have talked to about this seem to agree.
 
gflat65, so sorry to hear you now get to deal with the monti nudis. I hope your survival rate is better this time. My buddy is currently treating all his montis with levamisole. His first treatment he did 40ppm for 5 hours and it seemed to kill all the live ones. He than waited for the eggs to hatch out which took about 1.5 weeks. Then I recommended he try 60ppm (because that seemed to work for me with the AEFW's). He did it and a lot of his montis got pretty light afterwards so I think it is probably safest to stick with 40ppm on the montis. Good luck.
 
I went a tad high this time (~50ppm) for 5 hours. I did a different procedure this time to reduce stress. I pulled water from the display (which was where the monti's were) and put it in a 15 gallon. Moved the monti's and added the Levamisole with two MJ 1200's. At the five hour mark, I moved the tank into the QT room and slowly added water from the QT to acclimate to the QT, then transferred to the QT. I'm going to continue some variation of this for the next few. I'm wondering if having the lights off while treating might have helped?
 
I have always treated with the lights off...the things we are treating for are better apt to come out at night...therefore better chance of them taking a drink of the mighty L.

Levamsole of coarse.

Good luck, always something to treat for.

Grant
 
Has anyone considered an experiment treating with Panacur (fenbendazole)? This is a broad spectrum medication which has been used to treat flukes and tape worms (types of flatworms). I believe it works by sterilizing the adults and breaking the life cycle because they can no longer reproduce (which might be a big help with these pests since nobody knows how to kill the eggs.......so lets try to stop egg production! Also, it is water soluble and considered very safe for mammals.......not sure how things would work with fish/corals/inverts....since I don't have flatworms (fortunatley!!!) I cannot do this experiment....
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7848533#post7848533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Has anyone considered an experiment treating with Panacur (fenbendazole)? This is a broad spectrum medication which has been used to treat flukes and tape worms (types of flatworms). I believe it works by sterilizing the adults and breaking the life cycle because they can no longer reproduce (which might be a big help with these pests since nobody knows how to kill the eggs.......so lets try to stop egg production! Also, it is water soluble and considered very safe for mammals.......not sure how things would work with fish/corals/inverts....since I don't have flatworms (fortunatley!!!) I cannot do this experiment....
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\

where can one get fenbendazole? vet? southern states? were both in richmond, so if you know of a place, lmk. thanks
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7683944#post7683944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sara B
I agree that something needs to be done to make the wholesalers more responsible and aware of the problem this is causing in the hobby.

I have just started my 2nd Levamisole treatment today in QT. I have lost one frag so far from the treatments in QT and when I pulled all of the Acro's out of the main tank last week, I found about 3 more acro's that showed damage from the AEFW's on sides that were not visible while viewing the tank. I will NEVER add another SPS coral without going into QT as the last bug I need is the Monti Nudi's too!

Sara
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heh i really don't get why the hobbyists are claiming or thinking that it's solely the wholesaler's responsibility to do so (i'm on both sides of thta coin, being a long time hobbyists who's worked in the ind. for some time, heh)

since when is any critter capable of guaranteed as being 'perfect' ?

i'd make the effort, as some others do, to clean up livestock as well as possile before sale-simply because it makes sense on so many levels (including repeat biz from cust's who get clean livestock) but it's still certainly not an issue that should garner any 'blame' from the end purchaser's side

nor is it at times an even remotely practical thing to accomplish-if hobbyists knew the process and timeframe of arrivals and how facilities acually are setup/run

it's like blaming the store for ich when you don't q yerself, prior to intro to the main system

kinda like blaming a ***** for her pup's fleas , lol


i've always recommended to everyone to follow proper q protocol-it's ultimately solely the hobbyist's responsibility to ensure proper husbandry for what they buy-and should be done if there's a known bug presence or not

it's not likely going to ever be possible to ensure everyone gets bug free stock anyway-y'all need to be aware of the sheer numbers and volume of pieces moving through the chain at any one time, staff available, etc etc. to really appreciate this thousands of corals might move through ONE import facility in a week ;)
 
Yes, but you could cleanout a holding tub or vat once in a while...makes since to me. When working in the public aquariums, we bleached holding system for possible bugs, paracites and such after each q time. Not asking for this...but something in the middle.

Man I try to sell quality corals, and when you have to treat all corals it costs $$$. But bleaching a system at a time could not cost that much $$$. There for you cut down on the spread of bugs. If you get in one unhealthy acro from the wild....it will in turn infect all acros passing through that system.

Kinda like safe sex...but just clean a system every once in a while for bugs or paracites.

Just my two cents.

Grant
 
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