AEFW new info and photos

[vitz]

do you have any idea how many vats/tubs are involved, and how that affects the respective businesses?

the smallest importer i worked for had mebbe 20 tubs/vats-and all were hard pressed to be able to be used ALL the time

but again-why shouldn't it be strictiy YOUR responsibility to make sure your animals are properly clean/treated ?

these are animals marketed and sold for a luxury industry-not large scale food consumption-and if hobbyists did what they should be doing anyway, it wouldn't be nearly half the issue it is today

do you hold the wholesalers responsible for eliminating white band disease bacteria from their water supply as well ?

it all seems like a blame shift out of a denial for personal responsibility to me-like blaming a salt for a poorly husbanded tank, after subscribing to the claims of a bogus 'study' heh

cleaning one vat out of tens (at best)will not prevent bugs from going out to market en masse w/livestock it's simply not an issue that that end of the supply chain can practically deal with, like it or not-so the bottom line remains that the hobbyist will have to bite that bullet regardless of where the responsibility could be placed

 

[impur]

You are both stating the same things, just on opposite ends. Which is why we haven't seen any changes and don't forsee any in the future.

 

[vitz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7682442#post7682442 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis
The problem with natural predators is that they will most likely never erradicate the pest. Therefore, if you know you are infected you will not be able to trade or sell corals (ethically).

IMO, the FW's are getting out of hand. More and more people coming out and saying they are infected all the time. And I bet there are literally thousands that do not even know they are infected. I think we need to start looking at the source. And I'm not talking about where they are collected (the AEFW's have been in the ocean all along). I'm talking the wholesalers. How often do wholesalers clean and bleach out their systems? I have no idea but I'm guessing it is pretty close to never! They get a sick acro with AEFW's and they don't sell it because it is dying. It sits in the system and as corals are moved in and out of those systems daily, the AEFW's are spreading at will. Eventually, the AEFW populations in the wholesaler's tanks become denser and denser as they sit on sicker acros that are infected. All the while, the AEFW's keep spreading to more and more corals going through the system. I know we as hobbyists are doing our part but what about the wholesalers?

so how much extra are you willing to pay per coral to cover the added expense (which MUST be turned to a profit by the wholesaler to be able to continue the practice long term) ?

 

[tangdiver]

Not saying responsibility...just helps keep the items (bugs) at bay...IMO things are going to change really quickly...

I am a very small LFS and treat all corals coming into my place. Either gets a coral dip then into the system, or goes into q tanks. The zoos get 4 weeks of freshwater dip treatments. The acros and monti get weeks of levamsole treatments every 2 weeks, and the list goes on.

Just would be nice if some wholesalers could help out LFS and in turn we could help out the buyers...

not blaming anybody...just would nice to see people helping others out...but $$$$ is what makes this hobby run.

I see more small LFS like myself start to propagate more and less imports and someday say good buy to wholesalers in general when it comes to imports. If it happens nobody to blame but themselves.

A little help up the road would be nice...but not my fault...not my problem, will most likely be the case.

Thanks for the input,

Grant

 

[tangdiver]

I charge more and people love that I am trying to make a difference and keep the hobby going.

What are the wholesalers doing?

I have gotten burned so many times by them and have found a couple good ones. I am a different LFS...not bragging but not many out there like me.

Grant

 

[tangdiver]

Vitz u a wholesaler or what? Keep the thread on task...

 

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7851399#post7851399 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vitz
heh i really don't get why the hobbyists are claiming or thinking that it's solely the wholesaler's responsibility to do so (i'm on both sides of thta coin, being a long time hobbyists who's worked in the ind. for some time, heh)

I don't remember anything at all being mentioned about shifting the "entire" responsibilty to the wholesalers in this thread. Could you please find where that was quoted? You are quoting Sara for saying that but I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone stated that.

What was discussed was that it would be nice if wholesalers could occasionally clean out a system or 2. Not all at once, it could be rotated so that different systems are cleaned out at different times. This would help prevent the build-up of diseases in those systems. The reasoning behind this was discussed earlier in this thread so no need for me to repeat myself.

I am lucky, I have a LFS in my area that does treat all of his stock. He treats all of his zoos for nudis, all of his acros from red bugs and flatworms, all of his montis for nudis, etc., etc.... And yes, I am willing to pay him a little more because he does that. I think in the future, more retailers will start catching on and doing similar things. Although, I will always agree that in the end it is the hobbyists responsibility to quarantine/treat all livestock before putting it in their display.

It sounds to me like you are a wholesaler (my apologies if my assumptions are wrong) and trying to defend yourself and make excuses as to why you shouldn't have to do anything about the problems or diseases in this hobby. Wholesalers want to maximize profits, but maybe they can start caring more about how they are affecting their clients and the hobby in general. The fact is, the wholesalers are contributing to the proliferation of pests and diseases in this hobby due to negligence. If they want to deny responsibilty for that, then that is their perogative.

 

[SaraB]

Travis - Thanks for setting the record straight on what had been stated prior in the thread ... we ALL need to take some of the responsibility for stopping the spread of these pests ...

Oh, and by the way I am treating my QT'd acros for the 5th time with Levamisole tomorrow and they will be returning to the main tank. A couple more acro's are showing some stress, but no others have died from the treatments.

 

[just dave]

Something to keep in mind is that even if everyone in the chain did their part in keeping "pests" from slipping through, some will still get through. Certainly problems would be greatly reduced if this was done but a practical cost effective solution that can be used by all in this "chain" will probably never exist. However, if the problems start costing any one "link" too much money, something will be done at least at that level. Until then CYA.

 

[Neptune777]

Let's get the thread on track and come up with a treatment that will work!

 

[Neptune777]

OK....I did some research and Panacur will not work suspended in the water column.....but I have a better idea anyway!

These flatworms are trematodes....and there is an effective trematode treatment for fish that has been widely used already in aquaculture called Formalin...and you can read more on it here: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM061

It can be used as a bath and does not need to be eaten like Panacur. The link above also has recommended dosages listed.

 

[tangdiver]

If trematodes, I am not sure if memory is right, But I believe we treted them with Praziquatel.(spelling). This was when I was in the public aquarium industry. So might be for something else. Just thought I would state it here.

Grant

 

[Neptune777]

Funny....I read the whole thread and Formalin was mentioned ever so briefly in one post and nobody picked up on it! I think this should be tried since it seems to be effective in the right concentrations..........I might even try it on some monti nudi's that I have been fighting for a little while....

 

[just dave]

I would not use Formalin or any Formaldehyde based medication. Without even trying it I'm pretty sure it will kill the coral if used at any any concentration strong enough to kill the AEFWs/ nudibranchs and it may even kill the coral at lesser concentrations.
As to Praziquantel , it has been tried many times and I've yet to see someone post that it worked. I tried it some time ago and posted about it . My results were inconclusive. The AEFW did die but so did the ones being held in a separate system without treatment and as these were the only ones I had I could not try the treatment again.

 

[Neptune777]

I think it would be worth taking an infested coral, putting it in QT and at least giving it a try.......before dismissing it completely. How can you be so "certain" without even doing a test? None of these medications tried thus far have been approved for use on corals so we don't know what the reaction will be until we chance it............just my $.02.

 

[just dave]

I'm not certain, just pretty sure based on my experience using it on fish and my understanding of what it does. Try it.

 

[vitz]

formalin is pretty much instant death to inverts-NOT reef safe

 

[Neptune777]

Fair enough.......although I would not do an "in the display" treatment I may still take a piece of infected coral and do a dip, rinse and see what happens.......

 

[vitz]

lol-no, i'm not a wholesaler/importer, but i've worked on that end, and in retail for many years

 

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7497551#post7497551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO


IMO, I think that Praziquantel would likely be the best to kill these damn things. The question is, what dose and what will happen to everything else? Maybe it is just a concentration issue.

According to Katzung praziquantel enhances Calcium influx and induces muscular contractions. THe drug increases the cell membrane permeability resulting in paralysis of the worm musculature. Vaculoization and disintegration of the tegment occur and parasite death follows."the drugs safety and effectiveness as a single oral dose have also made it useful in mass treatments...." In humans no major adverse effects have been described. In experimental animals, no effects are seen until doses approx 100 times the therapeutic range are reached; signs of CNS toxicity are then seen; A wide variety of mutagenicity, carcinogenicity, embryotoxicity and teratogenicity studies have been negative.

Given the therapeutic effect at 0.3 micrograms/ml I would shoot for this dose and see what happens. If everything looks good, but the FW's are still there I personally would double it redosing no sooner than four hours and then go from there. Again, I don't know of anyone else trying to use this and I am unaware of what does that they tried. It looks good with humans. You could do 50X the recommended therapeutic dose for human infections. Shoot for 15 micrograms/ml first.

What do you think?

I think that the best way to determine if we have an effective treatment is to determine the MIC. In antibiotics, the Minimal Inhibitory Concentration (MIC) is defined as the lowest concentration of drug that inhibits more than 99% of the bacterial population. In this case, the worms. We need to have a scientific approach without antecdote. You also need to establish the kill dose, where you induce death of the coral. By setting up various concentrations in test tubes, you can determine this.

I know that Dolt, has the capacity to be able to set this in motion. Unfortunatley, time hasn't been on his side and the 12-14 hour days have prevented him from posting or setting up any kind of treatment protocol. The first medication that I would look into is Praziquantel. Given it's safety in humans, at a high enough dose, it may be an in tank treatment.

Travis; I Highly agree with you. We as hobbiest need to take the responsibility of Q-tine all of our corals. If an outbreak occurs in Q-tine, we may be able to determine possibly where some of these infected specimens are comming from. A large component of infectious disease is epidemiology. If we can't find an immediate treatment, we need to look at this as an epidemic and find the source. Then we could address if there is a problem at a facility. To point the blame one way is wrong, it is all of our responsibilities. If the corals died and the holding facilties were taking the financial impact, you would have seen more action sooner. The LFS wants to get rid of them ASAP so they aren't left eating their profits. As hobbiests, it is one thing to lose a coral, but another to see an estabilished, mature tank crumble in front of your eyes. Losing a 5 year old acro colony that was grown from a frag is equivalent to losing a dog IMO.

This is a huge problem for our hobbiy that ends up destroying some of the more sustainable and hardy corals. A tank that is destroyed after being set up for 5 years is more than tragic. What happens if CITES via political legislation prohibits the importation of marine ornamentals into the US. This is not a far fetched scenario that could easily occur in the next 5 years. The loss of an established tank because of these damn things could threaten any chance of us continuing this hobby as we know it. We need to find ways to contain and control if not irradicate these pests. :mad2: