Algae Scrubber Advanced

maglofster

New member
We have on this forum (imho) an excellent thread - Algae Scrubber Basics - created by srusso (thanks man!). Now I think it could be wise to start a thread about the more advanced topics in Algae Turf Scrubbing.

For the theory as it stands, all basic questions, designs and other basic stuff about ATS, go HERE.

Since I'm an avid aquarium DIY nerd, and have been for 20 years, I recently jumped on the ATS-wagon to see what it would do for me. So far I have experience from five different versions. Versions that are open, closed and with CFL, T5:s as light plus all sorts of different media to grow the algae. One could say there are as many versions as there are people scrubbing.

One thing is for sure - this is a method that not many people use compared to other more proven methods. Maybe it will rise in popularity in the future or maybe it will be forgotten over the next "flavor of the month". But I think it's time for a collective scientific approach. I think we need to discuss and try out different methods and approaches to scrubbing in a scientific way to see what is good, what is bad and where this method can be refined.

One might look at the open source movement of GNU / Linux - They have enjoyed tremendous success due to the fact that they work as a collective (well mostly) all over the world. I think we have an opportunity to do this as well. Crowd-sourcing to gather data, draw conclusions and figure out solutions to problems.

Some topics I think could be included in this thread:

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?
* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?
* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?
* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?
* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?

This thread is NOT intended as a "it doesn't work" *flame on* kind of thread. If you wish something like that, please start your own thread and watch it go down in flames. (pun intended) :love1: Also, English is not my native language, so feel free to correct my language, spelling and such.

Let's get going! :wave:
 
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I think photoinhibition would be interesting to look at. Everybody seems to run their scrubber lit for 18 hr a day. Maybe in some setups this is ideal. I suspect that with intensely lit scrubbers this is not the case. An O2 senser plumbed to the scrubber drain would reveal what is going on.

I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.
 
I think photoinhibition would be interesting to look at. Everybody seems to run their scrubber lit for 18 hr a day. Maybe in some setups this is ideal. I suspect that with intensely lit scrubbers this is not the case. An O2 senser plumbed to the scrubber drain would reveal what is going on.

I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

I base my opinion on this link http--www.int-res.com-articles-meps-134-m134p207.pdf

It is a study of Cheato, but it is mentioned that most marine algae behave in a similar manner.

Ive read a similar idea, so on my scrubber I started to run my lights on 4 hour intervals off for 4 hours, I have since raised it to 5 and 3 and It seems to get a little better growth now. But since this thread is being started maybe I should start adjusting the light schedule and measuring how much growth I can get with each one. And where would we get an 02 sensor for saltwater?
 
Hmm, thanks for the link. Now how to get it to graph the 02 level.....hmmm I wonder if a small PLC would do it. Ive been contemplating integrating a PLC into my tank. Ok time for some more research. Thanks Joe
 
Just curious, what kind of lights do you have on your scrubber? The reason I ask is, unless you are running something fairly intense like T5s at point blank range, it might be a waste of time to try and find when photoinhibition occurs.
 
Im running the 4 total 23 watt cfl's. You think that with these lights they will never reach full photoinhibition? would LED's work better?
 
I think two scrubbers where only one is lit at a time would be the most efficient use of electricity. Use the O2 senser to determine when photoinhibition begins and set a light timer accordingly. So when photoinhibition begins the light goes out on that scubber and the other scrubber gets lit up. On the runup to photoinhibition, growth is fantastic, then growth drops like a rock, no matter how much light (electricity) you throw at it.

This is very interesting. I have been thinking about running two scrubbers - but that has been to get a more even export (cleaning one on Wednesday and the other on Sunday) than I get now. Photoinhibition is another good reason. Currently I run all my scrubbers on 24W T5 @ 3000K but have been thinking on trying out 10W powerled modules.
 
This is very interesting. I have been thinking about running two scrubbers - but that has been to get a more even export (cleaning one on Wednesday and the other on Sunday) than I get now. Photoinhibition is another good reason. Currently I run all my scrubbers on 24W T5 @ 3000K but have been thinking on trying out 10W powerled modules.

I also would expect rock solid steady PH with alternating scrubbers.
 
We have on this forum (imho) an excellent thread - Algae Scrubber Basics - created by srusso (thanks man!). Now I think it could be wise to start a thread about the more advanced topics in Algae Turf Scrubbing.

For the theory as it stands, all basic questions, designs and other basic stuff about ATS, go HERE.

Since I'm an avid aquarium DIY nerd, and have been for 20 years, I recently jumped on the ATS-wagon to see what it would do for me. So far I have experience from five different versions. Versions that are open, closed and with CFL, T5:s as light plus all sorts of different media to grow the algae. One could say there are as many versions as there are people scrubbing.

One thing is for sure - this is a method that not many people use compared to other more proven methods. Maybe it will rise in popularity in the future or maybe it will be forgotten over the next "flavor of the month". But I think it's time for a collective scientific approach. I think we need to discuss and try out different methods and approaches to scrubbing in a scientific way to see what is good, what is bad and where this method can be refined.

One might look at the open source movement of GNU / Linux - They have enjoyed tremendous success due to the fact that they work as a collective (well mostly) all over the world. I think we have an opportunity to do this as well. Crowd-sourcing to gather data, draw conclusions and figure out solutions to problems.

Some topics I think could be included in this thread:

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?
* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?
* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?
* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?
* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?

This thread is NOT intended as a "it doesn't work" *flame on* kind of thread. If you wish something like that, please start your own thread and watch it go down in flames. (pun intended) :love1: Also, English is not my native language, so feel free to correct my language, spelling and such.

Let's get going! :wave:

Thank you very much, and I must say an excellent start to this thread!! Well said, and you should be proud of your english, as it is eloquent and well stated. Better than my own...
 
I don't know. If it were me, I would not spend the money on an O2 sensor if I were running cfls.

While they may not be ideal, I do get a decent amount of growth with them and if I move them to close it will turn the algae yellow. I know I could get better coverage with t5's or LED's so I might look into a cost/benefit analysis. And running a 02 sensor would help prove what light is best and if CFL's are sufficient.
 
If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.
 
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Could I use an ORP probe to get a good data for photoinhabition?

Randy explains in this link how ORP works, and I know my apex can take this probe. I could began to possibly provide some relevant data. I haven't yet read the link you provided about photoinhabition so please excuse my ignorance on the topic.

If so I will purchase the probe as soon as I can.


http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php
 
I was initially thinking that there's no way this discussion is going to fly on this site. Everyone who wishes to discuss this, on both sides, needs to be on their Ps and Qs. I personally don't have a ton of free time to dig up data so you may not see me posting on here a lot. But I'll follow it...and we'll see how it goes!
 
If someone has time to skim or should I say "scrub" the basics thread of any useful posts that help here. I know myself and others have posted some great info that relates, I wish I could but don't have the time at the moment.

I can give it a try later on. I have read EVERY post in that thread. Lots of good information in there!
 
As was mentioned in the basics thread, I am working on setting up a controlled experiment using multiple independent (and isolated) systems using various LED combinations in an attempt to 1) pinpoint the optimal growth spectrum and 2) monitor nutrient uptake. #2 is really secondary, but since it only minimally impacts #1 to sample and test water, why not (gotta do it anyways). There may be other pertinent data, but mainly I am working on this to try and pin down the spectrum issue, as it seems there has not really been any study to date that really shows the optimal artificial spectrum for growing algae for our purposes.

It may also reveal the dominant type of algae grown under each given light source, or combinations of light sources, as well as the efficiency of said algae.

Should be interesting. If I have the time, I'll periodically post about the experiment, but the detailed thread about it is not on this site.
 
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