BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
I think thats for an incandescent light rule. not a CFL... If it is, i am seriously underpowring mine with 4 23w CFLs.... And mine grows really well. 23w CFL = 100w Incandescent.
Algae Scrubber Basics
- Thread starter srusso
- Start date
I think thats for an incandescent light rule. not a CFL... If it is, i am seriously underpowring mine with 4 23w CFLs.... And mine grows really well. 23w CFL = 100w Incandescent.
Not to be critical, but the screen size you mention is 220 square inches, with lights on both sides, its good for a 220 gallon tank. Also, the 4 23w CFLs are good for a 92 gallon tank using the 1 watt per gallon rule.
If you change to 42w bulbs you'd get much better results, but overall it's still be undersized for a 300gallon tank.
...maybe I missed something, though.
ecomdesign
New member
Excellent info!!! Thank you very much for all your responses. I'll look into increasing my flow rate and go from there.
It's definitely the *actual* watt rating on CFLs you want to use, *equivalent* watts don't count. Incandescent bulbs wouldn't work for a scrubber.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
Thats why i said i would have to re-measure, i think its taller but i dont remember, it's been over 6mo since i made the screen. Could be 22 x15... I doubt changing to 42w bulbs would get me better results because i already had to move back my lights about 6" because i get burn spots (algae turns yellwo and starts to die) and the lights focal point cross eachother pretty well. 23w CFL is = 100w Incandescent.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
have you tried incandecent bulbs? or seen anyone try them? Algae grows better in the red light spectrum and incandescents do have a good amount of light in that area, thats why 2700k CFL's grow algae better than 6500k bulbs.
My screen must be a freak of nature then if i get the same results as floyd with a lot less wattage of light.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
0.5 actual (not equivalent) fluorescent watts per gallon MINIMUM [0.13 watts per liter].
1.0 actual (not equivalent) fluorescent watts per gallon for HIGH filtering [0.26 watts per liter].
thats for flourescent lgihting, not compac flourescnet lights. CFL's have a higher efficiency so they can produce more lumens per watt. Thats straight from Santamonicas website. It doesnt specify if thats supposed to be CFL or flourescent tubes. Considering that CFL's as stated above, i dont think that it requires as muchas you are throwing at them.
How far away are you putting your lights from your scrubber? I'm at close to 6" and finally havent gotten a burn patch yet.
1.0 actual (not equivalent) fluorescent watts per gallon for HIGH filtering [0.26 watts per liter].
thats for flourescent lgihting, not compac flourescnet lights. CFL's have a higher efficiency so they can produce more lumens per watt. Thats straight from Santamonicas website. It doesnt specify if thats supposed to be CFL or flourescent tubes. Considering that CFL's as stated above, i dont think that it requires as muchas you are throwing at them.
How far away are you putting your lights from your scrubber? I'm at close to 6" and finally havent gotten a burn patch yet.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
http://www.nps.gov/grba/naturescience/algae-reduction.htm
here is an instance where algae has grown because of incandescent lights in caves.
here is an instance where algae has grown because of incandescent lights in caves.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
you stated they wont work, thats why i questioned you on that and provided the link above.
srusso
Active member
Its the heat incandescent bulbs create that becomes the problem, among others issues. Same reason metal halids aren't a great choice for algae scrubbers. Color is not the only important factor here... Its how close you can get the bulb to the screen without burning or "cooking" the algae. (Cooking being too much heat) (Burning being too much PAR)
The reason you want the bulb to be close is you what the filter to be as small as possible right? I think we all do...
Your screen is no freak, its just well balanced. Light, to Flow, to Growth Area...
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Just to clarify, the wattage is actual fluorescent watts, no equivalent incandescent watts.
CFLs are more efficient than standard T8s & T5s, but not T5HO simply because T5HO spreads the light evenly across a larger area with a decent reflector and is by far the better lamp for scrubbing.
BSOD your screen may produce a lot of growth, but likely would not be able to handle a completely full bio-load and 30 cubes of food per day. A properly designed 300g scrubber would. But if your nutrient levels are low, then it's doing what you built it to do. Just be aware of the potential limitation.
CFLs are more efficient than standard T8s & T5s, but not T5HO simply because T5HO spreads the light evenly across a larger area with a decent reflector and is by far the better lamp for scrubbing.
BSOD your screen may produce a lot of growth, but likely would not be able to handle a completely full bio-load and 30 cubes of food per day. A properly designed 300g scrubber would. But if your nutrient levels are low, then it's doing what you built it to do. Just be aware of the potential limitation.
I think the reason Santamonica referenced "actual (not equivalent)" is because this comparison is on every CFL bulb you buy where as I don't believe this comparison is made with T5 bulbs. Look at Floyd's summary post http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18632745&postcount=1036
This is a little different than a scrubber. Which is why I said incandescents wouldn't work for a scrubber. However, they would make a scrubber grow algae, just not efficiently and can't be used as a guideline.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
I'm not sure how many cubes per day i feed my fish, but if you see my tank, i have quite a few fish in there, i posted the video, and have never had any issues over the past 6mo. Sometimes i feed twice a day, there is always food left over on the sandbed and i just leave it there for any other small critters i may have or snail that wants a treat. My levels have never risen. Maybe everything is so well balanced that the "lack" of light you all claim i have is sufficient. I think sometimes people overkill things personally.
I have built several scrubbers for people as well and they are doing very well also. So i guess "properly designed" is a loose term.
Not trying to argue or insult anyone, but maybe the reasoning for some people to need so much lighting on their scrubbers is because something else is out of wack??
I have built this design for almost 10 tanks, (i dont use the incandescent equivelant in my formula for a proper design) and test their water bi-weekly, all water tests remain 0 aside from ph of course.
However, I will be brancing into LEDs within the next couple months, because i feel that the cost of replacing bulbs and the wattage are cost probibative to be an efficient replacement to a skimmer.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
If you read through his facts, he mentions T5's several times.
Yeah, its a little different. It doesnt have 40gph of water rushing over a screen to grow it. It's in a cave with porous rock where its constantly cool and damp, warming the area around the bulb enough to allow algae to grow without scorching it.
I know that this thread is a guideline, and everyones design can vary, but i think theres more to understand to this. Feels like something is missing. It's the next thing I'm going to tackle as i think the guidelines are a bit subjective. I donno, I'm an engineer, so i look for those kinds of things.
I understand light, intensity, spectrum, the need for water flow, bioload, etc, all the conditions needed to be met to grow algae. Maybe its just the whole CFL vs T5 (since T5's dissipate the light better) that I'm missing.
Maybe it's like i mentioned 600 posts ago that the CFL's need a diffusion sheet to prevent burning and will spread the light better so that you can get them closer.
But i think i might skip the whole, try to make CFLs/T5s better and jump into LEDs because CFLs are more toxic, wate of money in the long run (since you have to replace them every 3 months), and consume more energy than LEDs. This should get interesting.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
I will have to talk to Santa Monica and get your answer on this one. FYI he is an engineer and so am I, so I understand where you're coming from, wanting to know the answer. I know I read it somewhere along the line but can't recall at this point.
I believe what it basically comes down to is that (simplified) 1 photon breaks 1 molecule of N and 1 of P and forms one chlorophyll. That's the general idea. The more light the more scrubbing power.
The design guidelines are there so that your scrubber has maximum power available and can handle any situation. This include the kid dumping a whole jar of food in the tank, or a neighbor feeding 10 cubes when you told them one. It has unparallelled capacity for error. It can handle an absolutely huge bioload on it's own. Most people don't maximum stock their tank with fish and corals because their filtration can't handle it, so you have to shift your perspective.
Santa Monica's design is tested to handle just about anything you can throw at it. Literally, he was feeding 10 cubes a day, that is a ton of food. Now he does continuous feeding with liquid DIY coral food
I will check back with you in a few days as I'm just getting ready to test fill my 120 and then moved everything into it.
I believe what it basically comes down to is that (simplified) 1 photon breaks 1 molecule of N and 1 of P and forms one chlorophyll. That's the general idea. The more light the more scrubbing power.
The design guidelines are there so that your scrubber has maximum power available and can handle any situation. This include the kid dumping a whole jar of food in the tank, or a neighbor feeding 10 cubes when you told them one. It has unparallelled capacity for error. It can handle an absolutely huge bioload on it's own. Most people don't maximum stock their tank with fish and corals because their filtration can't handle it, so you have to shift your perspective.
Santa Monica's design is tested to handle just about anything you can throw at it. Literally, he was feeding 10 cubes a day, that is a ton of food. Now he does continuous feeding with liquid DIY coral food
I will check back with you in a few days as I'm just getting ready to test fill my 120 and then moved everything into it.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
Good luck with the move to the 120, i just did my 300 a couple weeks ago. Such a pain. But yeah, i see what you are saying. I make my own food so its a bit hard to say how many cubes i feed them as i just break off a chunk and come back in a few minutes to see if they are still hungry. But usually the piece is maybe 1/2" thick and i give them a block about 3-4"x5" slice. So roughly 10sq". Man, thats a lot of food now that i think about it... Some still hits the floor and I'll see it there the next day.
I have read the photon thing before, but reading it again makes me think of an idea to make this a bit mroe efficient. They make dimmable CFLs. What if you had some high power CFLs and on day one they could be at lets say 50% (since oyu just cleaned it, etc) then progress to 100% through the week and start over. A low powered andeuino or other microcontroller could handle that and the offset in energy could be more cost effective in the long run, esp for LEDs. Instead of bombarding the algae with photons that it cant consume. Basically try to balance or overshoot a little with a supply of photons.
OK, quick question for some of those that know :
1W CFL light per gallon is quoted. What is the lumen per gallon?
I've build an LED scrubber and after research, am doing a little experiment. I have one side with red LEDs and the other with warm white (2700K). It's only been going 2 weeks, but both sides have similar growth. Screen is 10" by 7" with 6 LEDs on each side.
Ian
1W CFL light per gallon is quoted. What is the lumen per gallon?
I've build an LED scrubber and after research, am doing a little experiment. I have one side with red LEDs and the other with warm white (2700K). It's only been going 2 weeks, but both sides have similar growth. Screen is 10" by 7" with 6 LEDs on each side.
Ian
bk_market
New member
I am having a lot of trouble setting up the algea scrubber.
First problem is the water I come out at an angle so so it doesnt spread and cover the whole screen which is 6"x9". I am attaching the picture here to show what im taling about. Water is show in blue.
Second the screen seem only have water mostly on one side and the other side is pretty dry on top of the slant water stream coming out from the pvc pipe.
Third problem is I have a lot of bubbles and it is right next to my return pump so it is killing my display tank.
Please advise.
First problem is the water I come out at an angle so so it doesnt spread and cover the whole screen which is 6"x9". I am attaching the picture here to show what im taling about. Water is show in blue.
Second the screen seem only have water mostly on one side and the other side is pretty dry on top of the slant water stream coming out from the pvc pipe.
Third problem is I have a lot of bubbles and it is right next to my return pump so it is killing my display tank.
Please advise.
It sounds like it could be a few different things, one you're slot isn't wide enough, two your slot isn't straight, three the slot isn't at the very bottom of the slot tube (causing the screen to be bent at the top), or four you have too much flow. I'm willing to bet though, your slot isn't wide enough, it should be 1/8", but if you have way to much flow it could be like holding you thumb over the end of a garden hose.
Once you have the slot figured out, your flow will even out.
As for bubbles, you may have to work out a bubble trap to diffuse the bubbles before they reach your pump. However, once you have your slot tube figured out, this problem may disappear as well. Part of the trick to reduce bubbles is to reduce splashing. Make sure the a little of the bottom of your screen is submerged in the water of your sump to make sure the water from the scrubber enters the water of your sump smoothly.
Once you have the slot figured out, your flow will even out.
As for bubbles, you may have to work out a bubble trap to diffuse the bubbles before they reach your pump. However, once you have your slot tube figured out, this problem may disappear as well. Part of the trick to reduce bubbles is to reduce splashing. Make sure the a little of the bottom of your screen is submerged in the water of your sump to make sure the water from the scrubber enters the water of your sump smoothly.
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