Algae Turf Scrubber ?

[Fishamatank]

What are the pros and cons of an algae turf scrubber?
I am going to be starting a new build soon and am weighing the option of an ATS as part of the system.
Should an ATS be used alone, or with a skimmer?
What type of surface area would be needed for a 150 gal heavy bio load mixed tank?
Can an ATS really replace a skimmer / DSB / carbon dosing ?
Are they stable, or do they require a lot of maintenance on their own?
Are there plans for a scrubber out there that is not going to cause a fluctuating water level in the sump? That is one of my concerns, is trying to get an ATO system dialed in and maintenance free with a fluctuating water level.

 

[Jstdv8]

type in santamonica into the search here and you will have all of those questions and more answered.
I'd stick with a skimmer to go with it personally, at least until you are confident everything is going smoothly and you've got a nice bunch of turf you are harvesting once a week.
Most people who follow by the book on thier builds and don't stray too much from the path have had stellar success.
Im building my first one right now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ATS cannot usually be used stand alone for long periods without some yellowing of the water. Skimmers, GAC, etc all help with the yellowing.

I'd also want a skimmer for aeration in my setup. While an ATS can add O2 when lit, it cannot bring in CO2, but rather depletes it, so it may not be optimal if you use limewater and have a need to bring in CO2. It also does not bring in O2 if the light is off, but rather depletes it.

I would think of it as being similar to a macroalgae refugium in what it can and cannot accomplish, given appropriate sizing.

 

[pazhope]

I have one and it works great, better than the macro, but I guess is because of the amount of light and that this type of algae grows faster.
I also have a Kalk reactor, but I never got to think on the consequences of the CO2 levels :S, I will need to read more about that.

In my case I was running a really small skimmer for my size of tank 90G, so my nitrates were on the 5-10 ppm range. With the ATS then drop to 0, but the skimmer is still on.

 

[Michael]

ive never seen one which is safe, the lights are always very close to running water and potentially very very dangerous, im suprised no manufactures have attempted to make a safe readily available unit for the hobbiest, also i wouldnt take too much attention of the santamonica thread, its one sided, but certainely read dr adeys results, very interesting and more importantly he actually spent time researching and experimenting, and is re-nown as a proper expert on the subject, his subject.

 

[Fishamatank]

ATS cannot usually be used stand alone for long periods without some yellowing of the water. Skimmers, GAC, etc all help with the yellowing.

I'd also want a skimmer for aeration in my setup. While an ATS can add O2 when lit, it cannot bring in CO2, but rather depletes it, so it may not be optimal if you use limewater and have a need to bring in CO2. It also does not bring in O2 if the light is off, but rather depletes it.

I would think of it as being similar to a macroalgae refugium in what it can and cannot accomplish, given appropriate sizing.

Would I see much of an advantage over the more standard setup I am currently using (skimmer, macro, still limewater top off), if I dropped the macro and added a ATS? Just trying to figure out if is worth the effort of making it.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

ive never seen one which is safe, the lights are always very close to running water and potentially very very dangerous,

It's no different than putting a light over a macro 'fuge or even just the tank itself.

im suprised no manufactures have attempted to make a safe readily available unit for the hobbiest,

Attempts to manufacture products HAVE been made. Sadly, we have patent wars to thank for the failure of that market.

also i wouldnt take too much attention of the santamonica thread, its one sided, but certainely read dr adeys results, very interesting and more importantly he actually spent time researching and experimenting, and is re-nown as a proper expert on the subject, his subject.

To be fair, santamonica has probably spent just as much time researching and experimenting on this subject as many "proper" experts. His results are well proven and his methods are easy to implement for the average hobbyist.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Would I see much of an advantage over the more standard setup I am currently using (skimmer, macro, still limewater top off), if I dropped the macro and added a ATS? Just trying to figure out if is worth the effort of making it.

It's effectively the same thing, but the consensus seems to be that a well-functioning ATS is more efficient (in terms of space and resources consumed) at binding nutrients. Honestly, since an ATS can be as simple as a bucket, a pair of clip-on lamps, and some plumbing, it really isn't a big loss if you try it and decide you don't like it.

 

[Michael]

It's no different than putting a light over a macro 'fuge or even just the tank itself.



Attempts to manufacture products HAVE been made. Sadly, we have patent wars to thank for the failure of that market.

hmm not sure about that, when ive had a light over my sump its been a good foot above the water not an inch, and definately a lot safer i think. usually the lamps on or near a scrubber are just an inch or 2 at most away from the water, some almost touching in fact, and most are diy made, and in plastic boxes, i have to admit some do seem ok, but they tend to be a little awkward to fit, actually in saying that 1 or 2 on the santamonica thread are better now than previous models, its a shame about patents though, i think a decent model if manufactured properly and safely would sell well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

[welcome]

Welcome, pazhope.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would I see much of an advantage over the more standard setup I am currently using (skimmer, macro, still limewater top off), if I dropped the macro and added a ATS? Just trying to figure out if is worth the effort of making it.

That probably depedns on how large of an ATS you get replacing how large of a refugium, and what species you grow in them. Same comment for light brightness in each.

When I decided to take a step forward from a setup like yours, I decided to add organic carbon dosing as opposed to an ATS, a bigger skimmer, etc. So far I like the results.

 

[Fishamatank]

I am actually doing pretty well with the fuge and skimmer, but you know how it is, sometimes you just have to tinker. The old adage "if it ain't broke don't fix it" probably should apply here....
I am planning a larger skimmer, maybe I should stick with the chaeto and see how it goes....
I imagine a carbon dosing system could be automated easily and be pretty maintenence free once it's dialed in too.

If I decide to try an ATS it will probably be on the cheap in an old salt bucket, would that be large enough to see a benifit over a basketball sized ball of chaeto?

A lot of different ways to skin a cat.

 

[stormrider27]

I run an ATS in my sump along with a skimmer and the combo seems to be working pretty well. I really don't think it is wise to expect an ATS to replace a skimmer but they do work well together to reduce nutrients.

 

[Masoch]

hmm not sure about that, when ive had a light over my sump its been a good foot above the water not an inch, and definately a lot safer i think. usually the lamps on or near a scrubber are just an inch or 2 at most away from the water, some almost touching in fact, and most are diy made, and in plastic boxes, i have to admit some do seem ok, but they tend to be a little awkward to fit, actually in saying that 1 or 2 on the santamonica thread are better now than previous models, its a shame about patents though, i think a decent model if manufactured properly and safely would sell well.

I made an acrylic box for my scrubber; impossible to splash the lights. And, for added protection, I put a lip around the bottom of the scrubber so that any splashes from it can't go from the tank on up. The system works quite well -- far better than any of my attempts at growing chaeto.

But I have two beefs with scrubbers: 1.) they're energy pigs (intense lighting + feed pumps); 2.) the CFL lights I use have virtually no PAR after 3 or 4 months. LEDs would be better, but LEDs aren't really ready for prime time.

Ultimately, I like my scrubber. And I like it a whole lot better than ANY of the small tank skimmers I've used. But you just have to recognize that, like most methods of nutrient export, scrubbers have positive and negative aspects.

 

[pazhope]

Thanks , I didn't realize it was my first post on this forum

<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

Welcome, pazhope.

Have been reading about CO2 and the kalkwaser (lime water) trying to figure out if I am getting into any trouble with my setup, I have a kalk reactor and the scrubber is on a 18 hr cycle while the tank lights are off,is this bad?
I am under the impression CO2 for the reaction will be obtained from the air on the water movement, am I right?

 

[pazhope]

ATS cannot usually be used stand alone for long periods without some yellowing of the water. Skimmers, GAC, etc all help with the yellowing.

I have read that this is caused because of the algae on the bottom layer dying because the top layer blocks the light and to avoid this you have to clean it every week. Is this true? or you end with some yellow after some time?

 

[Agu]

Had a frind with an ATS, The surge effect was great. However the noise and salt creep was terrible. He told me it was OK as the tank was at his classroom at college, but he'll never have an ATS on a tank in his home.

 

[Fishamatank]

I'm thinking that I'll avoid the ATS.....
Seems that that there are better option.

 

[Michael]

its probably the last great debatable subject at this present moment, also imo the patents der ville mentioned have probably killed the subject really as only diy models get testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is this true? or you end with some yellow after some time?

I think it is just that many proce4sses lead to organics in the water, including those released from algae, but certainly other sources too. SO if you do not have a way to export them, like skimming or GAC, the organics and yellowing build up over time. Certainly, any dead algae would contribute to it.