Algae Turf Scrubber ?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Have been reading about CO2 and the kalkwaser (lime water) trying to figure out if I am getting into any trouble with my setup, I have a kalk reactor and the scrubber is on a 18 hr cycle while the tank lights are off,is this bad?
I am under the impression CO2 for the reaction will be obtained from the air on the water movement, am I right?

That's a fine plan, just watch that the pH does not get too high if you do not have a skimmer providing aeration.

This has more:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

 

[Masoch]

its probably the last great debatable subject at this present moment, also imo the patents der ville mentioned have probably killed the subject really as only diy models get testing.

The patents on scrubbers have long since expired; there are, AFAIK, no IP-related barriers to making scrubbers in the US.

 

[Michael]

The patents on scrubbers have long since expired; there are, AFAIK, no IP-related barriers to making scrubbers in the US.

really, thats interesting, i wonder why there isnt a manufactured one available then?

 

[pazhope]

santamonica is selling one, but is a little expensive I guess because there is not mass production, I look pretty safe to me.

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=502

There is a guy from one of my local forums that is on the designing stages for a commercial one, he says he is almost done.

 

[Michael]

I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG THEN, basically he was pushing this idea for 2 years, had the thread up on every site on the web which was web related, almost 60 identical threads in total, i told him he was doing this to get feedback so he could make one, basically using us to do his research and then also getting free publicity from every site and not paying for it, he swore hed never get one made and was only interested in the idea of the scrubber, thanks for the link, he finally built one.

 

[pazhope]

Well, I think from day 1 he ask for somebody else to build this and sell it in order to make it popular, but nobody has and he claims because os this he is making this first attempt to sell it commercially.

If you read the link, he post very detail specs so you can build your own santamonica scrubber and his site is full with info on many other designs, it he was trying to make business, he will remove all the information from his site and definitely don't post detail specs of the one he is selling.

I just think the guy really want the scrubber to be a success on the hobby.

 

[Michael]

yeah fair enough, thanks for the link anyhow, much appreciated

 

[jenglish]

ATS are effective, though they have some drawbacks like anything else. FOr certain set-ups (like a filterfeeder set up, or say a seahorse tank where there is wasted food and high flow to keep it suspended for over-skimming is not possible) they can be the best option. For most setups the maintenance, and smell are not worth it. A DIY model is pretty cheap (relative to the hobby) and easy to build, so it never hurts to try one. On the average setup, they are more hassle than they are worth IME.

IIRC, it is the dump bucket style that the patents killed. IA used to sell them back in the day. There is no patent on the concept of using algae. I had a buddy that had a dump bucket and loved it. I ran a static horizontal ATS years ago and it had pretty dismal output, but I think that was more the individual design and my poor understanding of the concept at the time rather than the concept itself.

 

[Jstdv8]

I always hear about maintenance with these things, but 5 minutes once a week doesnt seem very bad at all, I spend an equal amount of time cleaning my skimmer (over the course of several months)

It seems the most of the people who have problems with them didnt follow the very good guidelines SM wrote up.
Not enough light, not cleaning the algea on one side once a week, ect.

And to the poster who said they are energy hogs, I only need 2 CFL's that put out 23 watts a piece, 18 hours a day my power costs 10 cents a kilowatt hour , there are 1150 killowats used a day so thats about 11 cents a day or 33 cents a month to run.
I am setting mine up to use my overflow so no pumps are needed.
Even if you went with a pumped version the pump would probably be smaller than your skimmer pump.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so thats about 11 cents a day or 33 cents a month to run.

You must have very short months there.

 

[Masoch]

And to the poster who said they are energy hogs, I only need 2 CFL's that put out 23 watts a piece, 18 hours a day my power costs 10 cents a kilowatt hour , there are 1150 killowats used a day so thats about 11 cents a day or 33 cents a month to run.
I am setting mine up to use my overflow so no pumps are needed.
Even if you went with a pumped version the pump would probably be smaller than your skimmer pump.

Honking big skimmers like the BK 250 use ~ the same juice as your scrubber's lights.

SM's design is /4/ T5HO lamps + a decent-sized Eheim -- that's up into something like 150, 175 watts an hour. At that point, you're up to ~$20 a month, just for electricity.

Next up, your CFL lights will have to be replaced every three or four months (SM's guidelines, confirmed with my PAR meter).

The expense with a big skimmer is front-loaded, but, frankly, they're relatively cheap to run.

Again, I love my scrubber; it is better at exporting crud than any of the small tank skimmers I've used on my 40. But it isn't perfect.

 

[Shakes]

But I have two beefs with scrubbers: 1.) they're energy pigs (intense lighting + feed pumps); 2.) the CFL lights I use have virtually no PAR after 3 or 4 months. LEDs would be better, but LEDs aren't really ready for prime time.

I would say LED are ready for primetime. I was under the same impression until I purchased my KR-92 LED for SPS growth and I have been pleasantly surprised by the results I also tried a 6.9 watt general purpose LED in my refugium which was a complete failure I am replacing that light with a nanocustoms 21 watt PAR 38 bulb. I anticipate my results will match my SPS due to having the proper lighting. LEDs are expensive and I anticipate the prices will come down over the next 5 years BUT I believe their advantages at todays high cost still make economic sense. I anticipate ATS will make a resurgance in the next few years due to the patent expiration and the growth of LED options.

LED's Try them! try them! you will see - that LEDs are good - for you and me!

Shakes
Obviously a LED convert!

 

[Jstdv8]

so thats about 11 cents a day or 33 cents a month to run.

You must have very short months there.

HA, that was terrible math LMAO

$3.30 a month, whew, I need sleep!

BTW, you don't need to go all fancy like Sm's new one, his old DIYdesigns work just fine too and are very cheap to build, Ive got 24 dollars into mine.
Im not saying they are perfect at all and I'm going to run mine with my skimmer, at least at first.
I figured out my lighting bill for my t-5s at 11.50 a month using the right math this time I hope

 

[Jstdv8]

Honking big skimmers like the BK 250 use ~ the same juice as your scrubber's lights.

SM's design is /4/ T5HO lamps + a decent-sized Eheim -- that's up into something like 150, 175 watts an hour. At that point, you're up to ~$20 a month, just for electricity.

Next up, your CFL lights will have to be replaced every three or four months (SM's guidelines, confirmed with my PAR meter).

The expense with a big skimmer is front-loaded, but, frankly, they're relatively cheap to run.

Again, I love my scrubber; it is better at exporting crud than any of the small tank skimmers I've used on my 40. But it isn't perfect.

 

[Jstdv8]

if you have a sump allready you can use your overflow water for the power for your scrubber no pump needed.
so a 24" t-5 uses 2 bulbs on each side at 24w a piece so thats 96watts an hour x 18 hours a day = 1728 watts a day so about 1.8 kwh's or 18 cents a day or $5.40 a month for the lighting
I don't know what wattage a pump would pull if you needed to have one

 

[herring_fish]

I used an Algal Turf Scrubber (ATS) for about 10 years, then relocated so I was out of the hobby for 8 more years and I have had my new tank running for about a year now. I love my ATS and it has served me well. I have tried to build as natural a system as possible but that is just a personal decision. My nutrient levels are always low despite bombing my tank with food.

I don't use a skimmer. Although they work great, a skimmer would only compete with the ATS. I don't get yellow water. My dissolved oxygen levels stay high. I don't use GFO and don't need to dose a carbon source to keep water quality high. I have used lesser amounts of vodka for the bacteria, just as a food source for the tank. I just like to keep things simple.

I'm always surprised when people, with no real experience with a well designed ATS, can't at least start their comments by saying, "I don't know enough about these things to advise you but..."

On the other hand, while freely admitting that he doesn't have a lot of direct experience with an ATS , every time Randy chimes in, I learn something that I do need to know.

Santa Monica is very passionate about his fairly new designs. We have talked and written to each other several times. I think that his hart is in the right place. He hangs out at http://www.algaescrubber.net. If you go there, you will find a wealth of information on how to build a good inexpensive scrubber. There, you can find out how much surface area and lighting you would need to have a successful design.

Dr. Adey's book Dynamic Aquaria is the most authoritative source of information but it is a text book. I found the entire thing very interesting though you would only need to read a couple of chapters to get everything that you need to know from the inventor of the true ATS.

Basically, according to your tank size, you need:
1. Enough lighting
2. A particular amount of surface area for the algae to grow on and
3. Good turbulent water flow so that the algae can exchange gasses and take up nutrients while braking down boundary layers and not getting matted.

That's it. To some degree, you can make up for one deficiency by adding in the other two legs of the stool. If your design isn't a good one, you will offer up another bad report but if it is a good one, the ATS can be very low maintenance, long lasting and provide stable water parameters for years to come.

An ATS has it's down sides. Most of these are resolved up front with good design. There in lies the rub. You can't buy many off of the shelf and you have to do some research to build a good one. If you do, it will work very well. Still, it is not for everyone but then, what is?

 

[Jstdv8]

great post!

 

[Jstdv8]

Has SM been ban here? I don't see his posts like on the other site I frequently visit.

 

[fishybudguy]

i to have been around the hobby for centuries and have seen many come and go,as for scrubbers they are not suitable to replace skimmers, i bought a huge one for my 260 from a place in Indiana.This thing only caused my nitrates to skyrocket and my wallet to shrink....sucessful systems work with the old faithful skimmer and sump theory....dont fight it just go with it...

good luck and happy reefing

 

[herring_fish]

I don't know what caused that but skyrocketing nitrates is not ever the result of living algae. Anyone that puts some cheato macro algae in their sump and puts a light on it will see downward movement in their nitrates. A "œTRUE" ATS is just the same thing done right. I used to even add fish fertilizer when I was trying to get reef plants to grow in the tank. No nitrate spikes. You obviously had a problem somewhere, design or installation. I would think that it was the latter, If a manufacturer tries to get around a patent, there is no telling what he'll come up with.

Obviously, one can't flip a switch one day, turning off the skimmer and turning the lights on over the scrubber. The turf has to get fully developed and then you would back off the skimmer slowly. "¦but if you like your skimmer, stick with it.

Has SM been ban here? I don't see his posts like on the other site I frequently visit.

As for SM. He has a very strong personality and got a lot of flack for the way that he said thinks so the decided to leave and do his own thing. I have tried to get him to mitigate some of his statements "¦and read a little more but he believes what he believes. I think that he is an electrical engineer but he makes a living as a marketeer. I believe that bleeds over into his hobby. I certainly wouldn't vouch for anyone I have never seen but, as I said, I think that his hart is in the right place.

He did like my idea (via the book) that putting fans on the screen can lower the temperature in the main tank. Despite our previous discussions, he wrote that turbulence was not important. Many papers around the net and Dr. Adey's work would indicate that turbulence can add as much as 50% to the efficiency of a scrubber. I simply suggested that he soften his comment to indicate that he has made up for the lack of turbulence in his designs by doubling the surface area with his two sided screen. He was adamant and didn't want to consider what others have shown to be true.

I know that he ticked off some people. So what if he's a little rough around the edges. He does have a lot of good information and some good designs that you can steal if you want to.