Yup. Or ozone.
Algae Turf Scrubber ?
- Thread starter Fishamatank
- Start date
Yup. Or ozone.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
On the subject of lowering nutrient levels and speaking of sand beds, who knows about the Matthews Upside Down Sand Bed (USDSB)?
USDSB brief description: A 10" of sand with a plenum under it. You pump water through a 1" tube to the 1" plenum and the water travels through that space, then right back up another 1" tube on the other end of the bed. Any remaining space is treated like a normal refugium. The action of the water being pumped causes a slight bit of pressure so water flows very slowly through the bed in a very even fashion.
I set one up for a while, using all of a 55 gallon tank but the water got very clean. Was it yellow? No brown. I had been feeding a lot. That clarity told me that it was mechanically filtering the water even if it was just a little bit of the water. I have a scrubber so that the food can stay suspended in the water column as long as possible. Since the big USDSB was working against the feeding, I took it out.
Now that I am feeding lees but more often, I want to try it again using only half the tank. The other half will stay filled with coral rubble making a cryptic zone.
Chuck Stottlemire uses a big USDSB in a plastic trash can. He also uses a skimmer, vodka and feeds very heavily for dendros.
Does anyone else have feed back on them?
USDSB brief description: A 10" of sand with a plenum under it. You pump water through a 1" tube to the 1" plenum and the water travels through that space, then right back up another 1" tube on the other end of the bed. Any remaining space is treated like a normal refugium. The action of the water being pumped causes a slight bit of pressure so water flows very slowly through the bed in a very even fashion.
I set one up for a while, using all of a 55 gallon tank but the water got very clean. Was it yellow? No brown. I had been feeding a lot. That clarity told me that it was mechanically filtering the water even if it was just a little bit of the water. I have a scrubber so that the food can stay suspended in the water column as long as possible. Since the big USDSB was working against the feeding, I took it out.
Now that I am feeding lees but more often, I want to try it again using only half the tank. The other half will stay filled with coral rubble making a cryptic zone.
Chuck Stottlemire uses a big USDSB in a plastic trash can. He also uses a skimmer, vodka and feeds very heavily for dendros.
Does anyone else have feed back on them?
jenglish
Marquis de Carabas
You may be right about the lights, I do not recall. But yes, running carbon pulls the gelbstof and any supposed alleopathic agents (which is assumed but has no evidence supporting this) from the water column quite easily. Or as Masoch points out ozone.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
teesquare,
I'm sorry if you were offended by my comments. I was not talking to you specifically about the yellow water. If you look back through the thread, there are several people that have talked about it.
I don't deny that yellowing seems to happen to some, just not me...yet. I do use carbon for insurance.
Now, how about sand beds?
Herring - I was not offended at all. But I also wanted to make sure I was not coming off like I was challenging or attacking you or the scrubber concept. I just want to continue learning. I have been in saltwater for 28 years now, and I am convinced of one thing: There are NO experts. Tehre are some of us that have years of experiences to share - but all of us can learn from one another. Even if we disagree, we should be able to do so - and still become friends.
So, I am truly making an effort in my posts to not come across as all-knowing, or arrogant. But I have to recognize that I am rather direct with people when I ask questions. That can be easily interpreted as aggresive, or boorish. Not my intent at all.
But thank you for your concern, I do appreciate the effort required to try and be pleasant sounding. Typing does not convey inflection, or emotion - so you deserve a:thumbsup: for the kindness.
Thanks!
T
So, I am truly making an effort in my posts to not come across as all-knowing, or arrogant. But I have to recognize that I am rather direct with people when I ask questions. That can be easily interpreted as aggresive, or boorish. Not my intent at all.
But thank you for your concern, I do appreciate the effort required to try and be pleasant sounding. Typing does not convey inflection, or emotion - so you deserve a:thumbsup: for the kindness.
Thanks!
T
Herring - I was not offended at all. But I also wanted to make sure I was not coming off like I was challenging or attacking you or the scrubber concept. I just want to continue learning. I have been in saltwater for 28 years now, and I am convinced of one thing: There are NO experts. There are some of us that have years of experiences to share - but all of us can learn from one another. Sometimes regardles of "time in the hobby" SOme people just learn faster! Even if we disagree, we should be able to do so - and still become friends.
So, I am truly making an effort in my posts to not come across as all-knowing, or arrogant. But I have to recognize that I am rather direct with people when I ask questions. That can be easily interpreted as aggresive, or boorish. Not my intent at all.
But thank you for your concern, I do appreciate the effort required to try and be pleasant sounding. Typing does not convey inflection, or emotion - so you deserve a:thumbsup: for the kindness.
Thanks!
T
So, I am truly making an effort in my posts to not come across as all-knowing, or arrogant. But I have to recognize that I am rather direct with people when I ask questions. That can be easily interpreted as aggresive, or boorish. Not my intent at all.
But thank you for your concern, I do appreciate the effort required to try and be pleasant sounding. Typing does not convey inflection, or emotion - so you deserve a:thumbsup: for the kindness.
Thanks!
T
Amphiprion
Premium Member
Most of the yellowing that I've seen stems from cleaning the screen/tray in the tank, as well as allowing underlying layers of algae to die. As herring said, adding turbulence mitigates this to some degree, but doesn't stop it outright over time. Each system and design will be different in terms of how long it can go between cleanings. Rinsing in water prior to returning it after cleaning also helps. The main issue is the introduction of chlorophyll and other pigments into the water from ruptured algal cells.
As far as yellowing in tanks goes, I've seen many tanks that don't run anything other than a skimmer that eventually yellow. Most people just don't seem to notice until they run some carbon and note the difference. I run carbon with my scrubber, as well as a skimmer. I feel they all do very different functions overall and that it is worth having them all. I don't have any pics of the tank at the moment, because it is recovering from neglect, but it is clear (in terms of color), minus the particulates that I allow. So far, I'm happy with the combination, as they all are doing their respective jobs. Above all, the scrubber is keeping inorganic N and P at very, very low levels while allowing previously superfluous (arguably wasteful) amounts of food. I'm using a SM-esque design and, IME, it does feature many improvements, minus the flushing capability (not entirely by design, but potentially more in care/maintenance).
Regarding clarity, that value varies. There are points in time where clarity may potentially be higher in the reef than in most aquaria and in other instances, much, much lower. Extend most of these "crystal clear" tanks to 25-50 feet or more and they maybe aren't so clear (days with very exceptional clarity are far, far fewer, though). There is evidence, though, that many reefs are growing more and more turbid due to runoff, etc.
As far as yellowing in tanks goes, I've seen many tanks that don't run anything other than a skimmer that eventually yellow. Most people just don't seem to notice until they run some carbon and note the difference. I run carbon with my scrubber, as well as a skimmer. I feel they all do very different functions overall and that it is worth having them all. I don't have any pics of the tank at the moment, because it is recovering from neglect, but it is clear (in terms of color), minus the particulates that I allow. So far, I'm happy with the combination, as they all are doing their respective jobs. Above all, the scrubber is keeping inorganic N and P at very, very low levels while allowing previously superfluous (arguably wasteful) amounts of food. I'm using a SM-esque design and, IME, it does feature many improvements, minus the flushing capability (not entirely by design, but potentially more in care/maintenance).
Regarding clarity, that value varies. There are points in time where clarity may potentially be higher in the reef than in most aquaria and in other instances, much, much lower. Extend most of these "crystal clear" tanks to 25-50 feet or more and they maybe aren't so clear (days with very exceptional clarity are far, far fewer, though). There is evidence, though, that many reefs are growing more and more turbid due to runoff, etc.
jenglish
Marquis de Carabas
Gelbstoff comes out whenever an algal cell is broken or dies but is not taken back up by an algal cell. Cleaning your screen outside the system thus greatly reduces this compared to a system where the cells are ruptured on the filter. You will still get some die off as one strain outcompetes another. Once the turf is established and mature this should decline from the early stages. You are going to get some gelbstoff in any system as all systems are going to have some algae.
Complicated examination of a problem with a very easy solution
There are some issues with odor, this is amenable to baking soda, filtering the air etc. It's not like skimmate smells great either.... so we contain it. Honestly when I ran mine I was in college so the smell of bourbon and moldy socks was pervasive enough I never noticed a smell to it. :beer:
Complicated examination of a problem with a very easy solution
There are some issues with odor, this is amenable to baking soda, filtering the air etc. It's not like skimmate smells great either.... so we contain it. Honestly when I ran mine I was in college so the smell of bourbon and moldy socks was pervasive enough I never noticed a smell to it. :beer:
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
I guess that I don't get the yellowing because of my dump bucket design and because I read the book 15 or 20 years ago. It said that from about week one or two, you should regularly take the screen over to the sink and scrape it there. Then you were to rinse it in fresh tap water. I put it under the spicket. Only then were you to put it back in the tray.
With the bucket design, the algae is always wet so there is very little die off so no smell. The tipping of the bucket agitates the water inside it (not the only way to get turbulence), which helps to keep the strands separate right down to the base. This allows good water flow and lighting to all of the strands, even if you do not harvest regularly enough.
I may have gotten use to a very slow shift to yellow over the years but when I added the carbon sock I didn't see a big change like I did this time after heavy feeding. I guess that I am lucky or blessed.
I did smell the algae when I scraped it. It didn't bother me. Smell is very subjective but to me, algae smells a lot better than skimmate particularly when the cup over flows.
Still there is no winner. Perhaps that is as it should be โฆ.but I have one more card to play.
LET'S TALK ABOUT TASTE! I think that we can all agree that algae tastes far better than skimmate, RIGHT?
Actually, curiosity did get this cat. After my turf algae changed over to cellophane algae and then I stopped using a screen, I did try tasting it once and a while. It was spicy!
I think that this is really a picture of sliced sea weed. Take out the seeds, the brown strands and wrinkle it a little and you have it. Dinner?
With the bucket design, the algae is always wet so there is very little die off so no smell. The tipping of the bucket agitates the water inside it (not the only way to get turbulence), which helps to keep the strands separate right down to the base. This allows good water flow and lighting to all of the strands, even if you do not harvest regularly enough.
I may have gotten use to a very slow shift to yellow over the years but when I added the carbon sock I didn't see a big change like I did this time after heavy feeding. I guess that I am lucky or blessed.
I did smell the algae when I scraped it. It didn't bother me. Smell is very subjective but to me, algae smells a lot better than skimmate particularly when the cup over flows.
Still there is no winner. Perhaps that is as it should be โฆ.but I have one more card to play.
LET'S TALK ABOUT TASTE! I think that we can all agree that algae tastes far better than skimmate, RIGHT?
Actually, curiosity did get this cat. After my turf algae changed over to cellophane algae and then I stopped using a screen, I did try tasting it once and a while. It was spicy!
I think that this is really a picture of sliced sea weed. Take out the seeds, the brown strands and wrinkle it a little and you have it. Dinner?
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Amphiprion
Premium Member
I've only ever noticed a smell when the algae is out of the water, like when water flow no longer streams over it. Other than that, it should not really have a smell, short of seawater. But working at LFSs, seafood stores, etc. has robbed me of much sensitivity to such smells, so I may not be the best person to compare this.
Jstdv8
New member
I find it odd that the scrubbers are always compared to the skimmers as comeptition when they both pull different stuff out of the water. Seems to me if you wanted to be safe you would run them both. neither is a substitute for the other as they do completly different things.
One of the finer LFS's here doesnt run anything on his system but a fuge with chulerpa and his tanks look great. to each his own.
One of the finer LFS's here doesnt run anything on his system but a fuge with chulerpa and his tanks look great. to each his own.
jenglish
Marquis de Carabas
I think it sort of depends what you want to do. There are those who specifically want to leave in what a skimmer removes, especially in filter feeder tanks.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
There's no doubt about that Jstdv8.
At the same time, a beginner should think about competition itself. I'm not talking about which is better. Do you like Ford or GM cars? They both get you to the store and back. I'm talking about competition between equipment and disciplines or strategies.
I started my tank with my old scrubber and it was working well. That's 1. Then after four months I put in a large refugium full of a very special type of coral rubble. That's 2. Then I added lots of bacteria to seed it. That's 3. Finally, I also added some cheato to the low light fug. That's 3 รยฝ. All of them were competing for the same nutrients.
Right away, when I preformed a harvest, the algae didn't grow back. The algae had nothing to live on. I had a clean ATS that did nothing but dump water. I was basically running my entire tank with a refugium full of rocks.
The splash kept the O2 up but it didn't take out the CO2. With the heavy feeding and the bacteria, the pH started to fall but I couldn't figure out why.
I kept reading about a link between CO2 and pH. Then it dawned on my. I move the cheato into my dump bucket. The macro algae was slower growing so it didn't need as much nutrient input to live. On the other hand, it still breathed under the bright lighting of the scrubber. Right away, the pH came back up.
As I backed off of the bacteria additions, the normal sushi algae started to come back so I put the macro algae back down in the fug.
I wrote all that as an example to show that IMO, when you choose the primary way of cleaning the water have faith in it and use the others as a supplements only. If you have a 100 gallon tank, don't have a skimmer that is build for a 150 and a scrubber for a 125 and a big refugium full of macro algae and GFO and vodka and, and, and"ยฆ.
If you change from one primary to the other, closely monitor what is going on and understand what the primary wants in order to work well. Make sure that it is working well and then use the others to suplement only where needed, not because it's cool or because it is the latest fad. I fell into that trap. I have a few other ways of cleaning the water, sitting in the garage, that I bought or built because I thought that it would do a good job of what was already being done in my existing setup.
At the same time, a beginner should think about competition itself. I'm not talking about which is better. Do you like Ford or GM cars? They both get you to the store and back. I'm talking about competition between equipment and disciplines or strategies.
I started my tank with my old scrubber and it was working well. That's 1. Then after four months I put in a large refugium full of a very special type of coral rubble. That's 2. Then I added lots of bacteria to seed it. That's 3. Finally, I also added some cheato to the low light fug. That's 3 รยฝ. All of them were competing for the same nutrients.
Right away, when I preformed a harvest, the algae didn't grow back. The algae had nothing to live on. I had a clean ATS that did nothing but dump water. I was basically running my entire tank with a refugium full of rocks.
The splash kept the O2 up but it didn't take out the CO2. With the heavy feeding and the bacteria, the pH started to fall but I couldn't figure out why.
I kept reading about a link between CO2 and pH. Then it dawned on my. I move the cheato into my dump bucket. The macro algae was slower growing so it didn't need as much nutrient input to live. On the other hand, it still breathed under the bright lighting of the scrubber. Right away, the pH came back up.
As I backed off of the bacteria additions, the normal sushi algae started to come back so I put the macro algae back down in the fug.
I wrote all that as an example to show that IMO, when you choose the primary way of cleaning the water have faith in it and use the others as a supplements only. If you have a 100 gallon tank, don't have a skimmer that is build for a 150 and a scrubber for a 125 and a big refugium full of macro algae and GFO and vodka and, and, and"ยฆ.
If you change from one primary to the other, closely monitor what is going on and understand what the primary wants in order to work well. Make sure that it is working well and then use the others to suplement only where needed, not because it's cool or because it is the latest fad. I fell into that trap. I have a few other ways of cleaning the water, sitting in the garage, that I bought or built because I thought that it would do a good job of what was already being done in my existing setup.
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herring_fish
Crazy Designer
The general idea is that when the lights in the main tank are on, there is photosynthesis among the inhabitants in the tank. This breathing helps to keep the pH a little higher but it drops at night when the lights go off. If you bring a scrubber on line during the off hours then the peak breathing in the scrubber will compensate for the drop off in the main tank.
This should smooth out or dampen the pH swings that occur during the day and night. Sometimes you need to have the two over lap or conversely, you might have to have a lag between the times that you turn on the lights in the two systems.
It may only be because people don't fine tune but many people do over lap, having the scrubber on about 14 to 18 hours a day with the middle of the light period of the scrubber being in the middle of the dark period in the main tank. ....but there are no hard and fast rules.
Sometimes, the pH regulation takes a back seat to nitrate control so that, users often increase or decrease the length of the light period according to the nutrient level that they want. The current fad outside of the scrubber world is that CO2 is a major player in pH control. If the lighting in the two systems over lap, the CO2 stays relatively depressed so the effectiveness of the counter lighting still works well.
This should smooth out or dampen the pH swings that occur during the day and night. Sometimes you need to have the two over lap or conversely, you might have to have a lag between the times that you turn on the lights in the two systems.
It may only be because people don't fine tune but many people do over lap, having the scrubber on about 14 to 18 hours a day with the middle of the light period of the scrubber being in the middle of the dark period in the main tank. ....but there are no hard and fast rules.
Sometimes, the pH regulation takes a back seat to nitrate control so that, users often increase or decrease the length of the light period according to the nutrient level that they want. The current fad outside of the scrubber world is that CO2 is a major player in pH control. If the lighting in the two systems over lap, the CO2 stays relatively depressed so the effectiveness of the counter lighting still works well.
Amphiprion
Premium Member
Exactly. That's also what makes turf scrubbers excellent CO2 scrubbers, as well.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
I forgot to add that if you are a person that wants to simply put macro algae in a refugium, you can also take advantage of the same lighting schedule. It probably will not be as powerful but it should work.
Of course with a scrubber or a fuge, a down side for some people might be that the tank area is never completely dark unless you do a better job of shielding the light.
Of course with a scrubber or a fuge, a down side for some people might be that the tank area is never completely dark unless you do a better job of shielding the light.
orthokardia
New member
does it matter the type of algae the turf consist of????? i see some folks selling turf starter screens. are they worth it? some sites say the turf will naturally cycle through the types of algae until the optimal brown turf algae appears.
-bart
-bart
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