All you EVER wanted to know about Southdown
- Thread starter Grumpy Vet
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Fizz71
FragSwapper
We still have some here and there in Lancaster, Reading and Allentown PA..as well as the yard right stuff. But they stopped bagging it two years ago so it won't be long before NOBODY can find any. I need to go hunting again myself. The last batch I found near me had mold in the bags.
--Fizz
--Fizz
pikachusalad
New member
Here's a thread from yesterday on reefs.org -- maybe southdown is now called something different?
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=84464
I checked the 3 Home Depots between my house and work - all buy their play sand locally...not much argonite based sand ocurring naturally here in the Twin Cities...
I saw some suspiciously white play sand at Toys R Us the other day...but it says "not for sale in California", which leads me to believe there must be LEAD or something in it...
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=84464
I checked the 3 Home Depots between my house and work - all buy their play sand locally...not much argonite based sand ocurring naturally here in the Twin Cities...
I saw some suspiciously white play sand at Toys R Us the other day...but it says "not for sale in California", which leads me to believe there must be LEAD or something in it...
ReefTourist
New member
I can vouch for the kolorScape sand bubbling in vinegar. It's packaged by OldCastle in a blue bag:
A friend of mine found it at a HD while up in NY a few months ago. (I have plenty left over if anyone in the VA area would like a few bags you can PM me.)
A friend of mine found it at a HD while up in NY a few months ago. (I have plenty left over if anyone in the VA area would like a few bags you can PM me.)
Snarkys
.Registered Member
i talked to some people at old castle directly and they said the supply of caribbean sand dried up and they are no longer producing it.
when you say it bubbles do you mean it has a slow stream of bubbles or does it almost foam ?
a small amount of the sand should completely dissolve in a gallon or so of vinegar right ?
when you say it bubbles do you mean it has a slow stream of bubbles or does it almost foam ?
a small amount of the sand should completely dissolve in a gallon or so of vinegar right ?
ReefTourist
New member
I didn't try dissolving in a gallon of vinegar, but in a small cup a good amount of sand will send out a good stream of bubbles for quite awhile.
I figured I'd post a pic of the bag since it's what was referenced in the reefs.org thread.
I figured I'd post a pic of the bag since it's what was referenced in the reefs.org thread.
Fizz71
FragSwapper
Old Castle is the same as Southdown..the company was bought out. But like Snarkys said, they don't sell it anymore.
I talked directly to the company too (two different people..they are actually only a few miles from one of my company's offices). They lost their supplier (almost 2 years ago), and didn't replace them. They currently sell no silica free sand.
However HDs and Lowes by this stuff by the multiple pallets and it keeps a long time if it's dry so you'll still see it out there for maybe another year.
--Fizz
techreef
Premium Member
Fizz71,
I feel like this horse has been flogged well past death, but are you saying then that the KolorScape, and I guess the other bags under the Old Castle name brand, contain silica and are not appropriate for reef tanks? That reef keepers should only buy the Southdown-branded sand, if we can find it still around? But if we can't find the Southdown labeled bags, not to buy the KolorScape or Old Castle bags?
I feel like an idiot still asking about this, but I don't want to screw up my tank 6 months-1 year from now if crazy chemicals start leaching out of my DSB. And by then, I could attribute my tank crash to any number of other reasons, and never know. Maybe just shelling out the $ for LS is the way to go?
I feel like this horse has been flogged well past death, but are you saying then that the KolorScape, and I guess the other bags under the Old Castle name brand, contain silica and are not appropriate for reef tanks? That reef keepers should only buy the Southdown-branded sand, if we can find it still around? But if we can't find the Southdown labeled bags, not to buy the KolorScape or Old Castle bags?
I feel like an idiot still asking about this, but I don't want to screw up my tank 6 months-1 year from now if crazy chemicals start leaching out of my DSB. And by then, I could attribute my tank crash to any number of other reasons, and never know. Maybe just shelling out the $ for LS is the way to go?
Snarkys
.Registered Member
most people think silica sand is OK. the reason people want sand like south down is because of its buffering properties and its ability to slowly release nutrients . fact is that most of us never let our PH get low enough to ever dissolve much of the sand and it really doesn't do a whole heck of a lot. there is no question that calcium based sands are better , its just a question of do you want to chase down the cheep stuff or pay the big bucks for the expensive stuff.
im pretty sure even the experts like ron and RHF have said the same. RHF has even gone as far as to say that we should dose silica. i personally just went with the fine quickrete.
article about dosing silica
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm
RHF saying calcium based sand doesn't buffer much.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=400977&highlight=silica+AND+sand
all that said , id be really surprised if kolorScape was calcium based. there have been other brands that bubble slightly , I believe you are looking for more than a small stream of bubbles.
im pretty sure even the experts like ron and RHF have said the same. RHF has even gone as far as to say that we should dose silica. i personally just went with the fine quickrete.
article about dosing silica
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm
RHF saying calcium based sand doesn't buffer much.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=400977&highlight=silica+AND+sand
all that said , id be really surprised if kolorScape was calcium based. there have been other brands that bubble slightly , I believe you are looking for more than a small stream of bubbles.
Fizz71
FragSwapper
I try to stick with what I know is widely "tested" through use. The Southdown and eventually the new label "Old Castle" were the same and well tested "in the field" by other reefers. It's what I am using right now for my DSB in a system that's been up for over 2 years. I will say I have a bubble algae problem, but who can say what the actual cause was.
I have no experience with KolorScape so I can't comment on that. I've talked to vendors about the difference between the cheap SD south and their expensive stuff and you basically just get an answer about increased filtering, and the old "running through a magnet" comment that seems to be mentioned a lot. Nothing about special contents. IMO..if it was safe for kids and wasn't silica based..then it sounded good to me.
But like I said...I use the information shared on this board as a collaboration of experience and experience showed that South Down was safe to use so I used it.
I personally called "Old Castle" and confirmed that it was in-fact the identical product so I would buy that with confidence as well.
Take what you read with a grain of salt (or grain of sand in this case) and decide what you think is safe. I say this a lot: There is no "right way" to setup a reef tank, just ideas that work or don't work.
--Fizz
I have no experience with KolorScape so I can't comment on that. I've talked to vendors about the difference between the cheap SD south and their expensive stuff and you basically just get an answer about increased filtering, and the old "running through a magnet" comment that seems to be mentioned a lot. Nothing about special contents. IMO..if it was safe for kids and wasn't silica based..then it sounded good to me.
But like I said...I use the information shared on this board as a collaboration of experience and experience showed that South Down was safe to use so I used it.
I personally called "Old Castle" and confirmed that it was in-fact the identical product so I would buy that with confidence as well. Take what you read with a grain of salt (or grain of sand in this case) and decide what you think is safe. I say this a lot: There is no "right way" to setup a reef tank, just ideas that work or don't work.
--Fizz
Snarkys
.Registered Member
id say that silica sand is "well tested in the field by other reefers" including the DSB and water chemistry experts like DR ron and RHF.
Ive done many searches and all i can find is people saying they have used silica sand without any problems at all. the only people saying anything negative are the people who have never use it.
personally id still rather use the calcium based sand but there is no type of south down here in Minnesota and I'm unwilling to pay $40 a a 30# bag for LFS sand so the quickrete was an affordable solution. i personaly needed 400# , cost me $35 rather than $533
if you can find southdown or the like , jump on it !
Ive done many searches and all i can find is people saying they have used silica sand without any problems at all. the only people saying anything negative are the people who have never use it.
personally id still rather use the calcium based sand but there is no type of south down here in Minnesota and I'm unwilling to pay $40 a a 30# bag for LFS sand so the quickrete was an affordable solution. i personaly needed 400# , cost me $35 rather than $533
if you can find southdown or the like , jump on it !
Fizz71
FragSwapper
..that may be the case... I had SD available so I didn't bother to investigate it.
I certainly wouldn't say anything bad about it..I have no opinion on it either way. If I setup a new system I may be forced to read up on it further. I'll be doing a sump DSB next time though..only a little sand in the tank.--Fizz
techreef
Premium Member
Re: the remote DSB's, I'm curious what you guys experience with those. I had read that moving your DSB out of your display tank may or may not be a good idea because the main source of detritus (fish, shrimps, crabs, snails, etc.) is in the display tank and that detritus would not really reach the remote DSB as well as if the DSB was located in the display. I guess if you have good flow, the detritus gets mixed into the water column and reaches the remote DSB, but it was something that gave me pause.
Geez. Never imagined I'd spend so much time thinking about the sand in my tank. This hobby is amazing. :rolleye1:
Geez. Never imagined I'd spend so much time thinking about the sand in my tank. This hobby is amazing. :rolleye1:
Fizz71
FragSwapper
Yeah..that's definitely something to think about. I still plan on having sand so I'll still have the cleanup crew in there, it's the non-aerobic layer I won't have...which I thought was more about the water than the waste. I don't know...I had planned on doing research again before setting up the big mamma I'm looking to do within the next year. I'm concerned with long-term DSB crashing which is my first motivation to going with it in the sump.
I'll probably first set it up with no DSB and see how it fairs...I'm just tired of losing 6 inches of tank and seeing all the crap in the layers...along with the fear of a crash as my main concern. Like I said before...no right way.
--Fizz
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