Anemone Before... and... After.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9816223#post9816223 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Well time to faint .... My breed stock has been with me for a number of years and they always stay with me.
I reach in to the breeding tank once a month, lift them out and then with a razor sharp filet knife, slice them in half. Half goes back in the donor side, the other is the clone side. (sure hope these guys do not feel anything:()
10% exception to the rule is likely around 8% too high. Kudos to anyone that manages to take a bleached animal and save it. (admirable, yes, good move? maybe not)

The problem is that in this hobby, even the best reef keepers end up with water issues in the first couple years that will kill a large portion of their livestock.
It is sad and unavoidable, accidents happen.

The problem with the Anemone's is that they do not propagate well in the wild. (I am of the belief that wild harvest should be banned entirely) Areas that have been stripped clean of wild Anemone's likely will never again have them.

As a sport diver, you will go to an area that 5 or 10 years ago were alive with different animals and today they are stripped clean of them. (this is why I decided to start propagating in the first place).

Every time someone goes to a petstore and buys a bleached animal (knowing it is and am now going to save it), the store things "Hey, easy sale, get some more" and a week later, there are 3 more in the tanks.

So the Samaritan gesture that saved 1 animal , just got 3 more removed from the ocean and for every 10 that are harvested, 1 or 2 might survive. Not all keepers are diligent enough to find out what it takes to save an animal and follow through. They just think cool animal. Add this to the fact that many tank owners will simply replace it with another when it dies because they like the way it looks. (sad huh? most professional tank maintenance guys will tell you about these people, they like the look of an fish or animal and it dies, they will gladly pay for another)
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I have been lurking here for some time now, and recently registered. I fully understand your samaritan argument, I do. My local Petco (who have really good fish) continually and habitually attempt to sell anemone's. Every 3 weeks the old one dies, and a new one is put in. They have been open for 5 years, the SW manager has said flat out they have sold exactly 1 in that time. They get them no matter what. Now I am not making this thread about petco and its practices. What I can infer though..is If I bought one of these, and nursed it back to health. That would be a success..even if it lasted only 6 months. Cause the alternative is a guaranteed death. Providing even 6 months of health to this animal is a positive. In a perfect world, people wouldn't buy from these dealers. And my local petco no one does. Yet in the tank will be an anemone. So while I see, and grasp and even agree with your advice to a point. This is a good thing what the OP did. In an imperfect world, its far better than the alternatives.
I'm not going to pretend to know what the future holds for this nem, or the OP. I do know that right now the animal is in far better care and health than it was. That is a good thing. So good on you FLreef. And thank you for your time, and your pics.

Saltie
 
I want to THANK YOU ALL who have realized we need to be positive and helpful to each other in this hobby. That's how we create a positive and active community.

FroMan - Out of curiosity what brand of T5 fixture and bulbs do you have?
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I have a Nova Extreme 4 x 54 watt 48" T5 hood. The bulbs are from Current also. I don't know how good the bulbs are but so far everything is growing and colors look good. There is a light guru here on RC (The Grim Reefer) he suggested I change my bulbs to to make my growth and color even better...
Front of Tank
ATI - Blue Plus
ATI - Super Actinic
UVL - Aqua Sun or GE 6500k
ATI - Blue Plus or Aqua Blue


Randall_James - I think it's great you're trying to help our oceans by breeding nems yourself to help stop wild harvesting. It would be great if more people could and would do that with all species.
You have to realize that not everyone knows nems are not supposed to be that pretty white w/ purple tips like you find them in a lot of LFS. They find this out later while doing more research. It is also far and few between to find captive bread animals for sale since it is mostly unsuccessful with many animals. The way you make it sound is we should just let the ones that have been harvested just die at the LFS so they will stop ordering them therefore creating less demand for harvesting. Look at it on the flip side... Yes it may be cruel to remove nems/fish from the wild but isn't even more cruel to let them die on purpose? Majority of the fish we purchase for our home reefs are from the wild and if we (not just me) are going to continue to make this hobby more and more desirable and successful wild harvesting will continue until we can master captive breeding on these popular creatures. Therefore I am not going to let animals dies on purpose at the LFS just to prove a point. If I want an nem/fish/coral and the LFS has the one I want I will buy it and do everything in my power to make sure it survives and thrives. Otherwise these animals will die in vain.
 
ahhh you might think about leaving them in the store to die. Here is the exact point of the argument.

Saltie bought the Anemone at P***** after it was there for 3 weeks.
Now the hitch
The store replaced it with another 3 days after he purchased his. Unless he bought that one too, it will be dead in the same 6 months or so. . The demand just went up for this critter and they are going to meet it.

There are exceptions to most rules, we would all like to believe that we are the exception... perhaps you are. Good for you, however that still leaves the vast majority out there on the outs.

I would love to move the doomed critters to better accomodations but it just does not work out regardless of how you do it. The store replaces it as soon as it is removed from the tank.

I would like you to post again in a couple years (this is where success is just starting to be measured) and bust my chops then that you sitll have the same animal. I would like nothing better.

If yours dies in that time, I would be happy to send you one of my tank bred animals for free. At that point I will feel like you know your tank and the chemistry involved in long term reef keeping.

I am not being sarcastic or mean, it is just how this hobby usually works out for most. I do envy the few that have a tank up and running after 5 years without problems that cause the loss of livestock.

Congrats on your success with your animal, keep up the good work and I suspect it will survive.
 
Flreefgirl, congtrats! I believe your anemone will be one of the exceptions to the rule. it is rare to see one recover like yours. Awasome job! I have a H. Crispa that is about 14 inches in dia. but it has never bleached. It was tan when I baught it.
This thread has allot of misleading info in it. When people talk about anemones being hard to keep, in general they are talking about host anemones. In this thread people have posted pics of candylacits (spelling?) and talked about their sucess. Short of taking this anemone out and stomping on it you can't kill this thing. The other anemone discussed was another Atlantic species, the flat rock/Flower anemone. You can't kill this thing either. You can't compair these anemones to host anemones. Hosts do not survive well in captivity. flReefgirl added cured live rock to her tank early on. This is not the "new" tank you hear people talking about. I could take rocks and sand from my tank and set up another smaller one. Go buy an anemone that day and place it in this tank with no ill side affects. When experienced people talk about a "new" tanks they are refuring to a tank that must go through the whole cycling process. Had Flreefgirl added her anemone to a tank like this it would be dead by now.
When experienced reefers like Randall James gives facts about the hobby to newbies it may be helpfull to pay attention to what he has to say. I don't know if his numbers on the survival of host anemones are dead on or not, but they are real close if they are not. To be argumentative in the face of facts that you just don't like to hear serves no purpose other than to mislead other newbies.
Not trying to start an argument. Just trying to clean up some misleading info.
 
There are truly a large number of variables that will determine the success or failer of any noob trying to keep an anemone. FLReefGirl is on the right track. Back to the original argument, I don't think that the time fram itself is really that big of a factor. The biggist issue at hand is the amount of understanding and husbandry that goes into making the proper environment for the creature.

To me what is actually most frightening is the thought of how many people there are in the hobby that don't know of RC or another source such as this and never cracked a book on the subject.

I know that when I first started I read several books, not having a computer at the time. I still made some mistakes that I am paying for even now. Mostly just the small size of the interior of my stand.

Actually I think FLReefGirl is doing good w/ this post in that if nothing else she is showing what a healthy Sebae is supposed to look like. There is a reason that these nems are describes as difficult to keep when they hit the lfs. They take specialized care and they are sick to begin w/.

I also agree w/ Randall. I think that many collection tactics of these creatures is horrendous to say the least. Maybe someday we as hobbiests will be able to make a completely self sustaining industry that will allow for low to no reef impact, but no time soon. As I see it, it is only a matter of time before the industry gets a big thumbs down by the general public and the reefs around the world will be closed for business.

I also plan on setting up my own propogation setup grow and distribute corals. The way I see it, it is only a matter of time before such a business will be the only way to legally obtain these creatures.

I think the biggest thank you actually goes to RC on this one. Simply for being available to educate as many people about the industry as possible. I think most people find this site after they set up their tank and have found it a good way to get back on track.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9819948#post9819948 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
ahhh you might think about leaving them in the store to die. Here is the exact point of the argument.

Saltie bought the Anemone at P***** after it was there for 3 weeks.
Now the hitch
The store replaced it with another 3 days after he purchased his. Unless he bought that one too, it will be dead in the same 6 months or so. . The demand just went up for this critter and they are going to meet it.

There are exceptions to most rules, we would all like to believe that we are the exception... perhaps you are. Good for you, however that still leaves the vast majority out there on the outs.

I would love to move the doomed critters to better accomodations but it just does not work out regardless of how you do it. The store replaces it as soon as it is removed from the tank.

I would like you to post again in a couple years (this is where success is just starting to be measured) and bust my chops then that you sitll have the same animal. I would like nothing better.

If yours dies in that time, I would be happy to send you one of my tank bred animals for free. At that point I will feel like you know your tank and the chemistry involved in long term reef keeping.

I am not being sarcastic or mean, it is just how this hobby usually works out for most. I do envy the few that have a tank up and running after 5 years without problems that cause the loss of livestock.

Congrats on your success with your animal, keep up the good work and I suspect it will survive.
Click to expand...

Clearly you didn't read my post, or are to biased to see it. First off, I don't own a nem. Never have and won't for some time. Secondly, said petco has sold one in 5 years, and said manager doesn't want to even have them in the store. Not sure what demand your seeing there. Now those are facts. I would assume anyone can see the animal isn't being bought, therefore one could assume there is no rhyme or reason to their habitual stocking of Nems. They have corporate minimum orders they simple must have. If..a really big IF, I was to buy one and attempt to save it..maybe even succeeding you would think that is bad. Great, keep to your opinion. I admire that when one is faced with being unpopular. It doesn't make you right though. Nor does changing my story to fit your purpose.

Saltie
 
I'm sorry saltie, I think he did. He's saying that the arguement for buying the anemone and saving it is faulty because it encourages petco to send another one to its death in its stead.

He then implies that the one was "saved" would die anyway in captive care. Not because of an willful malice, but from a harsh reality of their survival rates.

The only way to save anything like that from petco, is to never buy at all.

But of course, this arguement is academic.
 
I don't think the issue was really "Buying an anemone in order to save it". I bought mine on impulse early on in the hobby and did not know that bright white meant sick. The guy at the LFS did tell me that it would color up at home that is was white from the stress of moving (or something like that- was a while ago now).

I think it was more of people buying them because they looked cool and would ahve some flowing lofe to their tank. They then come here and find out they made a mistake, but instead of Randall James or almost anyone else saying "OK, you made a mistake, let's see if we can save this animal" 98% start bashing the person that came in looking for help - saying you can't do it - you can never do it, blah, blah, blah.

I have been lucky enough to be able to raise a healthy Condi, and a healthy RBTA - and I like to share those successes with people that have purchased a sick new out of ignorance.

How are people going to be willing to post for help when the last time they did they were ganged up on by a group of people that said "Take all your stuff back to the store, you messed up, your're going to kill everything, it's hopeless, read, read, read, and read for another 6 months before you buy anything"?

We are scaring new hobbyists away with our overly judgmental attitudes. Instead of trying to help we are criticizing - which defeats the purpose of these boards completely.
 
I agree also.

I started this thread as an upbeat and happy "Look how healthy my Nem is Now" thread. Hoping to get some others to share in their success as well and to get some helpful advice and tips for myself as well as to pass along to other Noobies.
Instead I got an overly and unwarranted argument thread. How does that help anyone? I am also one of those people who found RC after I set up my tank and I almost stopped coming to RC for help because of the bashing and negativity I experienced right off the bat. But fortunately I found someone here who took me under their wing and said "you made some mistakes lets move on and work with it to make it better". That's what all newbies need, not criticism and judgement.
Look at rafa316, he was excited about the possibility of owning a nem one day, by page 2 you scared the crap out of him and made him unsure about his system. How did that help him in anyway?

Oh. and thank you all who have given my nem your well wishes and compliments. :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9823547#post9823547 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sepeku
I'm sorry saltie, I think he did. He's saying that the arguement for buying the anemone and saving it is faulty because it encourages petco to send another one to its death in its stead.

He then implies that the one was "saved" would die anyway in captive care. Not because of an willful malice, but from a harsh reality of their survival rates.

The only way to save anything like that from petco, is to never buy at all.

But of course, this arguement is academic.
Click to expand...

Clearly...not buying has worked. :rolleyes: 5 years..one sale...yet more stock. Not saving one has been going on. In the mean time its bad on this board to save an animal from a CERTAIN death, and at least make an effort to help. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Saltie
 
:blown: ....

There is hope FLReefGirl... Check these pics out:

79338sebae2.jpg


79338sebae4.jpg


79338sebae3.jpg


79338sebae2304-med.jpg


And then finally:

79338anemone-med.jpg


Now its atleast 4 years old and still thriving with the same clarkii! Way to go FLReefGirl on yours recovering too and I have no doubt it will live long and prosper.
 
jer77 -Now its at least 4 years old and still thriving with the same clarkii!
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AWESOME!!!
This is what I'm talking about...
Goes to show it can be done. 4 years and thriving.

Would you please give us your care taking routine so the rest of us can obtain the same success?

ANYONE ELSE? JOIN IN!
 
Care Information:

Before the color came back it was in a 20g with 20lbs. LR and a SSB. I had a millenium dual HOB filter with just carbon running. I had a seaclone, yes I know... and I had a 55/65W All-Glass single PC fixture. It did ok in there, it was my first tank so I learned a lot. I don't really remember much from back then, but I know I fed it atleast once a week with krill and silversides. I got the Heteractis crispa when the tank was only 2 months old, I don't really recommend doing this. It probably wouldn't have lasted long in the 20g with that lighting so I bought a 55g and placed it in there.

In the 55g I have about 40lbs. LR and a DSB that I've added more sand to many times. I used to have more LR in there, but I found that its not necessary since I only have 3 small fish and they like more room to swim, like my bicolor anthias. This tank has a sump with a small refugium, an old Euro-Reef CS80, I think?, and a mag7 return pump. Besides the return I have 3 powerheads, maxijet 1200's and an old UGF powerhead. There could be more flow, but I only keep easy corals, 2 sebaes, and a sand anemone, plus various inverts. For lighting I have a Coralife Aqualight 4X65W PC and a 2X28W? T-5 fixture or a total of 316W. I change the 15-20 gallons of water every week so thats 27-36% weekly with RO/DI water. I do this for all four of my tanks weekly including my sps frag tank which I change up to 40% weekly. No need to say I now have no algae problems and my water is always perectly clear and I have no problems with nitrates or phosphates. I didn't always used to do this however. In the tank with the anemones I let the coralline algae grow and grow without a water change for 6 months and the anemones were fine. I think I owe alot of it to my clean up crew, DSB, refugium, and tons of filter feeders that grew like sponges, tunicates, feather dusters, and some other worms. Back to the anemones, I feed them once or twice a week with really whatever my fish are eating, they'll eat anything really. For a while it was PE mysis, then a whole cube of regular mysis or brine shrimp. Now I feed it special formula VHP with some clams, angelfish cubes, spirulina, mysis and enriched brine shrimp all soaked in selcon, vita-chem, and cyclop-eeze-I know I'm spoiling them but I've noticed sharpening of color and deeper contrast between the purple tips and its body. And that's all I really do, plus the clarkii helps out most of the time taking the big pieces of food she can't eat to either of the anemones. The clarkii stays in both anemones about half the time during the day, but stays in the big one at night. HTH.
 
maybe those of you who have little experience with an anemone had bad luck. i know FlReefGirl, she is very comprehensive in her ability to learn. she knows how to keep parms almost perfect, 100% of the time. she is one of the lucky ones to have an anemone to survive this long in a new/1 month old tank to present. how many of you have kept everything you bought, alive from day one, without a single casualty from ANYTHING in the tank? snails, crabs, etc? each tank is different and everyone takes different care of their tank. i will have to agree, i would like to see it in a few more months myself. i know anemone very well.
"let he who is innocent, cast the first stone" long live your anemone Amy!:rollface: :p
JDM...:cool:
 
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