Another Dumb Question about Cycling

[Serra]

Are there 2 Paul B.'s? No that is Paul T. I was thinking of. I should be a blonde. Since Paul B answered this thread earlier and I see he is an electrician, I have a question. I had a heater break today...a very old one I was using to heat up water for a change.

I had just taken my hand out of the tub and I see these electrical flashes under water. The glass broke and all this black stuff came out. How bad of a shock would that have given me?

(My life was flashing before my eyes.) I promise I'll never cuss again. I mean it this time. Really. After all these years of playing with water and electricity I seem to think I am invincible. Guess not.

 

[herpchat]

Depends on where your hand was. Yes it could have been nasty but then again who knows. If anyone remembers those stainless steel tanks and hoods I had fall into the tank while I was cleaning and noticed the fish go belly up before I felt anything and I was able to get my hand out but unplugging it is where I got my biggest jolt. I have had my share of shocks. Electricity is not predictable, you might have got nothing this time and next time it knocks you into next week.

 

[tgwinn]

I tried to edit my above post but it had been to long. What I wanted to add to it was that obviously I really don't know if the bio spira would work or not, and that was why I was asking if anyone had any experience with it. I don't want to be one of those newb's that run out and buy a tank get it full of water and start dumping fish in it. My freshwater experience has taught me better than that. But I do value the opinions of others with much more experience than I, of which some of those people on the forum I mentioned earlier are and they are saying that the stuff works. I just want to be SURE and not end up doing something stupid and having a bunch of fish or anything else die.

 

[Paul B]

Serra, It would have woken you up very fast or if you had your other hand on something that was grounded it may have killed you depending on where in the cycle your heart beat was and what shape yopu are in.
Paul

 

[herpchat]

OK Paul now you have me wondering, there is a safe cycle in your heartbeat?

If you were grounded the jolt would have gone through you?

 

[tgwinn]

The jolt would have definately gone through you had you been grounded. You are essentially creating a circuit but completing the ground. I work in the telecommunications industry and have had my share of shocks while building power bays for telephone switches. Also, plenty of shocks with typical ring voltage. There was once that I don't know how I escaped not being fried due to another person's stupidity, but I am definately thankful that it didn't work out they way it "should' have according to science.

 

[Serra]

For the most part my shape is pretty much human. I had a heart attack 6 years ago and I can barely stand the shock of my electric bill these days so I probably would have been fried.

Ger, if the heart is electrically "jolted" in the period of cardiac repoloarization then deadly arrythmias can be induced and zap you're BBQ.

It was a good wake-up call and I will start unplugging things when I put my hands in the water. At least for a while....

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7722733#post7722733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by herpchat
Sometimes when I post old time remedies that work I get lamblasted by people saying these things are archaic and have no basis in "lalala I am not listening to the moron"

You get the idea, sometimes old things work, sometimes they don't and some of the things in that book are downright dangerous to fish.

You don't have to worry about that from me. What works for one person might not work for another and there are multiple ways of doing things. For example, Paul B and April (luvabunny) run unconventional tanks quite successfully. Things like low flow, little filtering, low lighting, no heaters, under gravel filters, etc. Even I go against the grain a little bit. I have extremely high lighting (250w MH and (2) 65w PC Actinic), extremely high flow (1290 gph looking to upgrade to around 2500 gph), and very little filtration (only an algal scrubber) all on my 29g tank.

Now there might be times where I conform a little. But I do this because more people have success with this method. I usually make these recommendations to someone that is either new to the hobby or new to an aspect of the hobby. I try to say that there are other successful options, but this one seems to be proven to work well for most. I will definitely voice my opinion on what could be dangerous to our livestock.

As a researcher and scientist I am always looking for new ways to do things. One of my aquarist responsibilities is running a Species Maintainence Program for wild Bettas www.ibc-smp.org . We have pushed the envelope there and now have 3 methods for artificial incubation of mouthbrooder eggs. If not for my flirtation with other types of fish I might have never put 2 and 2 together and made it work.

There is always something to be learned and I am forever the student. Probably always will be.

This is the perfect mentality to have with the marine aquarium hobby. There should definitely be more innovative thinking. It's good to have you on board.

Salt has always been one of those things I was afraid to try because of all the old horror stories of what could go wrong. Now that I am doing it its like gee this isn't hard, what was I afraid of?

Luckily, with your wide background in freshwater, there isn't too much that you need to worry about. You have the bulk of the newbie questions and confusions way behind you.

I am sure you are doing great so far because you have years of experience as a hobbyist, BUT beware, just when you think it is safe to go into the water...

No kidding. This is too true.

Is it Paul B or Travis who says only bad things happen fast in saltwater? Or something to that effect. Well it's very true.

It could have been me. I've said it numerous times. But I'll be honest, I've heard it from other people first

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7723850#post7723850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by herpchat
There is still so much to learn, I don't know if you remember the worm outbreak where one of our members scrambled everywhere to get a medicine and never found it so she substituted and discovered another cure.

And then to discover it was an on shelf item at Atwoods.

That's pretty much the same thing about the "cure" for Red Bugs; Interceptor. You know. The flea killer for dogs. There are quite a few other things out there like that. Definitely reading the ingredient label of products and reading the article in this months Reef Keeping Magazine is well worth it.

 

[captbunzo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7723528#post7723528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serra
Is it Paul B or Travis who says only bad things happen fast in saltwater? Or something to that effect. Well it's very true.

You may be thinking of my signature (see below). But I don't get any credit for the idea - I have heard it in SO many places around reef central. I just made it sould pretty and put it in my signature.

And you want more confusion, we now have a Paul B, T, and W.

Anyhow, as for Bio-Spira. I think the stuff is an ABSOLUTE waste of money in a tank that has even a piece of live rock in it. It MIGHT (BIG might there) be useful for a Fish Only setup. But I really doubt it.

I helped a store in Ardmore get going. They made a big commitment to Bio-Spira, using it to "kick start" ALL of their fresh and saltwater tanks. Then they spent the next 3-6 weeks killing fish, etc due to unstable water parameters. And they spent all that time trying to CONVINCE themselves that the Bio-Spira had been really helpful. At what they paid for it, I'd've been convincing myself of something as well.

What really annoys me is that now they sell it to customers, bragging about how great it is, all the while ignoring the first hand failure it had with them.

In short - there is not shortcut to creating stablized water.

Now, there CAN be a shortcut to setting up a tank in this respect. Get your rock a month or 2 in advance. Set it up in saltwater in some plastic tubs. Do water changes every once in a while. And make sure that you have plenty of water volume. Then, when you get the actual tank setup (which usually takes me another month or 2 do to all the engineering involved), use enough of the water in your tubs to make at least 50% of the water you need in your system.

Now.............. This is not a COMPLETE sidestep of the standard wait after the tank gets setup. HOWEVER, it can reduce the process dramatically. And since you are going to add fish (etc) too soon ANYHOW, this will help things to arrive in a more healthy environment to start.

(Yes, I know this isn't a revolutionary idea. But it is one that I think is not always so obvious. I think it is easy to get stuck with the idea that you can't start the cycle, etc, until you have things in the actual tank.)

And lastly, for a good read, check out this post by Eric Bornman. It is GREAT.

 

[Paul B]

As an electrician I get shocked more than most people but depending on where your heart is in the cycle and depending on what part of your body the currect is passing through determins if you will be killed or not. Obviousely not all shocks kill. Some people have no problem with them but some people are prone to a condition where your heart kind of squirms but pumps no blood.
I forgot what you call it but if you keep away from shocke you will be better off.
Paul

 

[tgwinn]

That answers my question. Maybe salt and freshwater are so different in tolerance levels that the bio-spira formula works for the fresh and not the salt? I don't know. Like I said, I just read the posts of poeple with years of experience in freshwater using the stuff on new freshwater setups and detailing the results. The results they are giving are great...but not having done it myself and always using the "fishless cycle" method I can't say if it truely "works" or not. Obviously from what you say, and the person who wrote the article you linked, it would be a waste in saltwater and something I would not even be willing to experiment with. Just trying to figure out the best way of going about this...that's all.

 

[captbunzo]

I understand completely, tgwinn. And I apologize if I sounded like I was coming down on anyone. I just wanted to throw that out there.

And that Eric Borneman article was great, wasn't it? IMHO, very illuminating. Here are some of his other great articles, great for pushing through the mush of ideas in this hobby.

Mything the Point:
Part 1: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/eb/index.php
Part 2: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php
Part 3: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.php

An Insider's Guide to Reef Aquaria
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-02/eb/index.php

 

[tgwinn]

Naaa..i didn't take it as you coming down on anyone. I did read the article and will read it again, as it is so much information that my feeble mind has trouble processing all of it at once. Especially since this salt water stuff is still new to me. It's like sitting down for a first day of work at a brand new job and them explaining the WHOLE job to you in about 10 minutes with all its complexities. There is just no way to process that much info that quickly without tons of questions and doing it yourself. I am one of those poeple that I learn by doing and have a tendency to "shut down" if someone is explaining something very detailed audibley. Guess I am a visual person not audible.

 

[herpchat]

I can ditto that one;

I am one who is notorious for not cycling FW tanks, I know how to get by without doing it and do, and when the subject comes up and I comment I don't cycle them people freak.

Now SW is a whole different game and a new ball of wax (who came up with that one?). I would never dream of not cycling a SW tank. I however am open to shortcuts if there are any.

 

[pwhitby]

If I may suggest:

we have lots of books on saltwater. Look at the list of library books, chose a couple and borrow them. There is an enormous amount of information in them that you can pick up at your leisure.

Paul.

 

[herpchat]

I guess I could. I do have some books but those that know anything about books talk about how great the UG filter is (cringing) and how the whole cycle works and so on.

My rule for FW is as simple as can be, change the water as often as you can. I did learn something interesting from here, that FW can't be skimmed, I often wondered about that, the other thing I wondered is why FW tanks dont have fuges. I do think under the right conditions Java Moss could be used like Caulerpa.

 

[captbunzo]

I have heard that a little salt in freshwater is good for fish health. Of course that was an unreliable source.

But if it WERE true, I wonder how much salt one would have to have in the water to effectively skim.

 

[herpchat]

The issue of salt is hotly debated.

Many fish can transition from full salt water to full fresh water and back again. Most of them are livebearers. In the past salt helps hide bad husbandry.

Benifits of salt
Stimulates Slime Coat Production
Helps with osmoregulation
Heps fight parasites
Can help stabilize water

Many fish can not live without some salt however there are a number of fish that salt is downright harmfull, a number of Blackwater fish fit that catagory. A number of my wild Bettas could not handle salt and I have 1 species that comes from Brakish water that might even be capable of taking full salt water.

Most killie breeders add salt to their water and a number of livebearer breeders do as well. Some African Cichlids have to have it and if they don't get iodized salt can develop goiter.

I would guess you could skim Rift Valley Tanks as they are high pH and contain some salt.

 

[Serra]

Gerald,

A refuge would work in fresh water. After all it is basically an algae scrubber as they used to be called in the old days. In fresh water I use java moss in all my tanks as that. Better yet is a planted tank. But the java moss is very similar to chaeto. I have some if you need a start.

I think the trick in SW is to keep all macro algae trimmed to avoid them going asexual. April (luvbunny) has lots of macros in her tank and it seems to work.

Of course the bottom line is just like FW...balance of nutrients going in and being used. Get rid of the extra thru your water changes.

 

[tgwinn]

I always added about a tbsp of aquarium salt to my freshwater african cichlid tank. They like the ph high and seem to do better with the little bit of salt and water being a bit brackish. My yellow labs almost ALWAYS spawned after my water changes and salt addage.