Another "Get off my lawn" moment from the washed-up: ULNS??

[Thales]

If you have some scientific facts to keeping Sps in aquaria please do inform is of your knowledge.

A non comprehensive list:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/search?Subject:list=Dana Riddle

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=102605

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f162/craig-bingman-articles-26537/

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/search?Subject:list=Sanjay Joshi

http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Aquarium-Vol-Science-Technology/dp/1883693144

 

[MHG]

Without getting all heady with scientific brain pan comparisons, here is my opinion. Every tank is different and I tried the ULN approach. What I found was instead of making me less concerned about nitrates destroying my system, But being more concerned with alk levels. If for any reason growth dropped off in the slightest, the alk rises. RTN started to destroy frags in my tank whenever my alk went above 9.... So I would go on vacation and there would be no one dosing amino acids or whatever and the growth would stop. Demand for alk decreases and boom... Dead frags....

Since stopping pellets and raising my nitrates up to 1-2ppm my color and growth have been better than ever. My alk is stable and if I am gone for two weeks my growth continues because I don't need to dose all bunch of stuff to keep it growing.

All that being said, I love the clean neat look of Zeo systems but i prefer the traditional approach.

 

[jazzman7838]

A non comprehensive list:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/search?Subject:list=Dana Riddle

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=102605

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f162/craig-bingman-articles-26537/

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/search?Subject:list=Sanjay Joshi

http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Aquarium-Vol-Science-Technology/dp/1883693144

I'd rather have faith in claims than read all that mumbo jumbo.

 

[Moser]

I never said double blind, just a simple side by side. I don't see how two or three 10 gallon tanks is not practical. I would think the people making the claims about the efficacy of the products would spend a little time running such a test.

So if you take the scientific approach away, then results are not really valid to the degree you would wish it to be shown?.

What I mean by not practical, is that nobody will actually be arsed to do it...

The product has been on the market nearly 10 years, they're not suddenly going to start trying to prove their product, when a couple of guys new to it start asking the same questions that were asked 10 years ago. They just brought the product to market and time and reefers did the rest for them..... They obviously knew it worked and I gather Thomas Pohl has a higher degree based around this work, although that might be hearsay!. The bottom line is that he isn't interested in proving it anymore.... If you look around, there seems to be evidence enough. All he says is use it if you wish.....

Mo

 

[karsseboom]

A non comprehensive list:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/search?Subject:list=Dana Riddle

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=102605

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f162/craig-bingman-articles-26537/

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/search?Subject:list=Sanjay Joshi

http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Aquarium-Vol-Science-Technology/dp/1883693144

Excluding the obvious like the relationship between azooxanthellae, alk, cal and mag. That's dosent explain why my tank crashed when all my parameters were dead on or why this coral rtn when my lighting was spot on. You totally missing the point. None of those articles explain why thing happen the way they do. It's all speculation.

The longer your in this hobby the more you realize you don't know much of anything at all. I know people in this hobby I would consider pioneers at Sps keeping and there tanks crash all the time. Where was all that valuable information? Why did that happen? How do you prevent old tank syndrome? What is old tank syndrome?

All this bring back the point that you can't do experiment with Sps corals like you do with other animals. There's to many unexplained things to make accurate claims on why the result was this.

 

[MammothReefer]

Agreed but I wouldn't put all the blame on karsseboom here. Theory vs Practice. A lot of things sound great in controlled experiments or on paper but until you apply them to practical use it's just theory. The information and respect needs to both ways. Sure we aren't career scientists but many of us have great thriving (subjective term) tanks that have been do so via trial and error. While we may not know why are corals respond a specific way we do know the things we do on our end to try to keep things on track (even if we don't know why they do what they do).

While I find some of Chris's posts interesting he does from time to time seem to enjoy poking and "one upping" amateur hobbyists instead of actively trying to engage and assist them. Maybe it's a maturity thing, but if I was a some sort of semi-professional race car driver I would like to think I would hold myself to a higher standard then to going to the local gokart track just to heckle the kids. It all comes down to tone and demeanor. When push comes to shove the majority of us aren't looking to be scientists. We have are own career paths already set and are professionals in our fields of choice.

If there is a better way of doing something let us know, tell us why, and show us how it was applied to real world application (I'm not risking my pets on untested theory!). We can go without the riddles, quizzes, open ended answers, being challenged on every turn, and the games that may be intended to engage us that can sometimes come off belittling. Most of us aren't going to provide responses in a similar manner to conduct the peer level debates that are often sought out in these threads.

Again this is a hobbyist forum. We just want to relax, enjoy our hobby, and see our tanks continue to improve as we keep them while sharing our experiences with others. There is a trend in most of these threads ending up in a very similar dark hole. A little mutual respect could go a long way.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Well said.

:thumbsup:

 

[galleon]

Hey, I'm far from pro. Or even semi pro. I am the kid at the go kart track. Many people here grow SPS corals light years better than I can.

 

[dc]

Let's try and act like adults. If you can't say something helpful, please don't post at all. I'll be removing posts here shortly.

 

[dc]

And I apologize for any posts removed that actually had something good to say. I'm just not willing to pick and choose which part was ok.

 

[Thales]

So if you take the scientific approach away, then results are not really valid to the degree you would wish it to be shown?.

Not me. At this point I would be interested in basic tests and see where the results might lead for further experimentation.

What I mean by not practical, is that nobody will actually be arsed to do it...

That's a shame. The hobby moves forward in leaps and bounds when people are willing to put some effort forth. I wrote an article that will be out in a bit in reef hobbyist magazine about harnessing the energy and resources of reef clubs for just this kind of thing, maybe someone will be inspired.

The product has been on the market nearly 10 years, they're not suddenly going to start trying to prove their product, when a couple of guys new to it start asking the same questions that were asked 10 years ago.

The three people in this thread that have been asking questions were asking the same questions when Zeovit first hit the market.

They just brought the product to market and time and reefers did the rest for them..... They obviously knew it worked and I gather Thomas Pohl has a higher degree based around this work, although that might be hearsay!. The bottom line is that he isn't interested in proving it anymore.... If you look around, there seems to be evidence enough. All he says is use it if you wish.....

In my opinion as a consumer that isn't good enough. It wasn't good enough for Marc Weiss products or the Eco Aqualizer.

 

[Thales]

Excluding the obvious like the relationship between azooxanthellae, alk, cal and mag. That's dosent explain why my tank crashed when all my parameters were dead on or why this coral rtn when my lighting was spot on. You totally missing the point. None of those articles explain why thing happen the way they do. It's all speculation.

Most of those I would chalk up to user error. However, the important point is getting rid of the speculation, and the only way we can do that is by asking questions and developing experiments designed to answer those questions.

The longer your in this hobby the more you realize you don't know much of anything at all.

Do you think that I am saying we know all the answers? I am not and unsure how you got to that idea - I think I specifically said the opposite. BTW, how long do you need to be in the hobby - is 30 years enough?

I know people in this hobby I would consider pioneers at Sps keeping and there tanks crash all the time. Where was all that valuable information? Why did that happen?

You'll have to ask them, but I bet they have better answers than 'it doesn't matter, its all speculation'.

How do you prevent old tank syndrome?

Proper and continued maintenance.

What is old tank syndrome?

Most likely an excuse for not doing proper maintenance.

All this bring back the point that you can't do experiment with Sps corals like you do with other animals.

Of course you can. It is done all the time recently in bleaching, temperature and acidification experiments. You can account for variables.

There's to many unexplained things to make accurate claims on why the result was this.

An experiment can be designed to take much of that into account. That is how science works.

 

[vitz]

wow. someone makes the ridiculous assertion that there's a paucity of scientific info on coral biology and science. that post stays. i laugh at such an ignorant (and yes,it's the epitome of ignorance) statement and my post gets snuffed. wow. just-wow.

if most hobbyists had karsseboom's mentality, we'd still be using incandescent bulbs on tanks full of shrooms as the 'cutting edge' of reefkeeping. afaict.

any product that has no definitive description or actual scientific basis of proof other than it's some mumbo jumbo cocktail that works is snake oil. period.

anyone who asks anyone to just accept that something 'works' w/out being able to explain why is a snake oil salesman, or a snake oil believer.

it's been established time and time and time again that just as beautiful a result can be obtained w/NONE of any of these b.s. additives. the claim that 'one can pick out a zeovit (or other vit) tank from others a mile away' (Paraphrase) is equally as ludicrous. just that one statement is pretty much an absolute credibility destroyer, in my book.

you may as well say it works because 'it's magic!'

 

[MammothReefer]

Why beat up hobbyists over issues you have with a manufacturer. Get some of the products yourselves figure out how, why, and if it really works then tell us. Start a donation page or something if you don't have the funds, I'm sure there are some hobbyist out there that would pitch in for the cause.

 

[vitz]

i have issues both w/ snake oil salesmen, AND the 'hobbyists' who propagate their 'magic potions'.

the whole mode of behavior is silly.

and, 'beat up'? i'm not the one making baseless unprovable assertions, and then claiming that scientific method doesn't exist, or isn't a viable method, in the world of coral aquaria. i would think that making such statements without being able to take the criticism that's guaranteed to follow is far worse than calling someone out on it accordingly. again 'magic believers' have no credibility, other than for people like doug henning, or kreskin

 

[MammothReefer]

You are going about it the wrong way. I don't disagree with you only your approach to the issue.
Re-read your post it's rather hostile and defensive. I know myself and many other people on both sides of the fence would revel in the idea that somebody who had the qualifications to do so doing a proper study to some of the long standing "traditions" and products in the Reef Keeping industry to separate fact from fiction. Think of it as a Myth Busters SPS special!

 

[vitz]

why would anyone post such a study here if it's to be deleted in favor of dogmatic assertions about magic potions ?

this is one of my biggest peeves about the 'hobbyist' world in general, and the 'supplement' industry in particular. most of these companies should be sued out of existence, imo.

and anyone who prefers the mentality of the dark ages should really refrain from posting UNLESS they're ready to take criticism back, that's just as assertive as their fables

i wouldn't say my posts were hostile and defensive. i would say rather that krasserboom's posts are insulting to biologists, ichthyologists, and coral scientists the planet over.

he should talk to dana riddle, bruce carlson, et al, etc etc etc

one month's worth of reading any 10 random emails to coral-list would prove that krasserboom is making some truly astoundingly patently false and ludicrous statements.

the danger lies in others who don't know any better also staying in the dark ages because counter responses that are equally as strongly worded get squashed (even if they don't use words to make their point!

there's only one reason for any failure in a reef tank (barring equipment failure), or any other type of tank-user error

 

[vitz]

You are going about it the wrong way. I don't disagree with you only your approach to the issue.
Re-read your post it's rather hostile and defensive. I know myself and many other people on both sides of the fence would revel in the idea that somebody who had the qualifications to do so doing a proper study to some of the long standing "traditions" and products in the Reef Keeping industry to separate fact from fiction. Think of it as a Myth Busters SPS special!

the only qualification needed would be one who can follow simple directions to set up a simple comparison test-no degrees required

a 12 yr old could do it

 

[vitz]

So if you take the scientific approach away, then results are not really valid to the degree you would wish it to be shown?.

What I mean by not practical, is that nobody will actually be arsed to do it...

The product has been on the market nearly 10 years, they're not suddenly going to start trying to prove their product, when a couple of guys new to it start asking the same questions that were asked 10 years ago. They just brought the product to market and time and reefers did the rest for them..... They obviously knew it worked and I gather Thomas Pohl has a higher degree based around this work, although that might be hearsay!. The bottom line is that he isn't interested in proving it anymore.... If you look around, there seems to be evidence enough. All he says is use it if you wish.....

Mo

another inland reef product test!

 

[sirreal63]