tank watch
In Memoriam
CBUI2: 28 x 91 would be more correct. I think I can squeeze 91 1/4 but I think 28 x 91 would be fine. Do you know a reputable place?
another giant tank construction
- Thread starter tank watch
- Start date
cbui2
Premium Member
will let you know, i forgot and today was so busy at the shop diidn't get a chance to call him but will let you know soon, sean at ebnreefs.com build a plywood tank also in mandeville, la.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=716410
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=716410
Tigger240
New member
one coat of glass sure did add alot of strength to my diy sumps, in the diy forum, and glassing wasnt that hard. id think about maybe using more than one though, but i guess its not necessary. just a point of reference, i really couldnt lay more than 8 oz of resin, but im sure with your big panels you can lay that and more, you have to work quick though. the resin kicks off pretty fast, i think i have about 8 minutes tops.
pitbullpooch
Member
thanks tank watch, Id rather spend the extra cash anyways so ill go with the fiberglass when i build mine. Id rather not have to replace my house if the thing leaks at some point down the road like you said. good luck with yours.
edit:tankwatch, I live in columbia tn. I forgot to change that so people know. Ive been asked a few other times already what state im in.
edit:tankwatch, I live in columbia tn. I forgot to change that so people know. Ive been asked a few other times already what state im in.
tank watch
In Memoriam
cbui2: I met Sean on a couple of occasions at his shop. Really nice guy whom I give much accolades to. He inspired me and reassured me that I could do this project. Most, if not all, my ideas come from Sean@EBN or dsandford's threads.
Julio: yep. wood. 48 x 96 x 34 Can you see the pics at the beginning?
Julio: yep. wood. 48 x 96 x 34 Can you see the pics at the beginning?
NanoReefWanabe
Active member
just a thought....but you may want to cut some 4x4 or something in half on a 45* angle to make little triangles that will fit into the corners to give you ten time the strength a straight butt seem would..that way when you fiberglass the sides to the 45's you would essentially be creating one very strong uniform shape as opposed to sharp corners..
take it from some one who has done A LOT of fiberglassing there isnt near as much strength in sharp corners as there is in smooth ones..
also one other very important thing that i have seen a lot of guys doing when building thier wooden tanks that i think is very wrong and will fail over time..is applying countless layers of resin with out glass...that is very bad...it wont add any strength, nor will it add any more water proofing, cause the little bit of deflection you get with the 600 gallons of water will crack the resin all too poop, yes even if you have 2 layers of fabric impregnanted resin on top of it. If your gonna lay fiberglass there should be a a layer of fabric/ matt in every layer, otherwise your wasting your time,resin and money and the resin is going to crack...
the tank looks friggin awesome though so far i can hardly wait to see the rest of it unveil itself...keep up the good work..
take it from some one who has done A LOT of fiberglassing there isnt near as much strength in sharp corners as there is in smooth ones..
also one other very important thing that i have seen a lot of guys doing when building thier wooden tanks that i think is very wrong and will fail over time..is applying countless layers of resin with out glass...that is very bad...it wont add any strength, nor will it add any more water proofing, cause the little bit of deflection you get with the 600 gallons of water will crack the resin all too poop, yes even if you have 2 layers of fabric impregnanted resin on top of it. If your gonna lay fiberglass there should be a a layer of fabric/ matt in every layer, otherwise your wasting your time,resin and money and the resin is going to crack...
the tank looks friggin awesome though so far i can hardly wait to see the rest of it unveil itself...keep up the good work..
tank watch
In Memoriam
Nano: thanks for the fiberglass tips. I was pondering the amount of fiberglass that would be necessary. Now I know that its "the more the merrier". More glass it is. Also, I have added pieces to the corners. I used 2x2 stock, ripped at a 45 degree to add the triagular pieces to the corners. I got that idea from dsandfort's thread. pics are somewhere in my cmera still.
Cbui2: not much lately. I am swamped with work, and will be for a while.
I scheduled a day with a friend to work on the tank, sanding, fiberglassing, and epoxy, but had to cancel for work. Its going slow. I'd like to see some of your plumbing though.
Cbui2: not much lately. I am swamped with work, and will be for a while.
I scheduled a day with a friend to work on the tank, sanding, fiberglassing, and epoxy, but had to cancel for work. Its going slow. I'd like to see some of your plumbing though.
NanoReefWanabe
Active member
hehe well not so much more the merrier but...
the strength in fiberglass is derived from the fiberglass not the resin, i build lots of stuff out of fiberglass (bumpers, fenders, custom dashs, sub woofer boxes, kick panels, mostly car stuff but still) and i cant stress enough to have what little resin required to soak the fabric as possible..once the fabric goes translucent you have enough resin on it...
for a project this large you may want to buy a large roller to actually squueze the resin into the fabric and the excess out.
albeit; the resin is what is going to make this water proof/ tight. so it is a kinda a catch 22.
when building ove wood i like to coat the wood first with a nice layer of resin, allow it soak and get slighty tacky, then hang up my fabric, and applya a little more resin to soak it through..
and on another note, i dont know if it has been suggested to you for a reson or not, as i am not a structural engineer, but why did you choose fabric anyway? Woven fabric only has high strength properties across its strands therefore in only 2 directions. where a fiberglass matt has multidirectional strands providing far superior strength to that of woven. (though woven is far superior along the two directions) which leads me to believe you are more so fiberglassing for water tightness then you are strength, and for that purpose woven will be fine, you will have to acheive extra strngth some other way...i believe the larger tank builds i have watched used laminated pieces of 3/4 ply.
i assume woven was chosen for the 'neatness' factor...LOL if there is even one when doing fiberglass...it also will tend to lay out considerably smoother then mat over flat areas (other then at the edges, and that is where fiberglass mat excells) you may even want to employ mat for use in the corners, as it doesnt create seems when used properly thus eliminating mucho sanding...if you overlap two edges of fiberglass cloth (woven) you will get a nasty seem, especially with 6 oz (btw is that 6 oz/ sq foot or 6 oz/ sq meter/yard? two different measurement obviously the 6 oz/sq foot is considerably heavier) if you get fiberglass mat, you can tear it into pieces (considerably raising the mess factor) and thus eliminate any seems as the fryed edges will blend together and not leave any humps...
okay too much talking i am just going to sit back and watch this tank unfold now...
MORE PICS...
the strength in fiberglass is derived from the fiberglass not the resin, i build lots of stuff out of fiberglass (bumpers, fenders, custom dashs, sub woofer boxes, kick panels, mostly car stuff but still) and i cant stress enough to have what little resin required to soak the fabric as possible..once the fabric goes translucent you have enough resin on it...
for a project this large you may want to buy a large roller to actually squueze the resin into the fabric and the excess out.
albeit; the resin is what is going to make this water proof/ tight. so it is a kinda a catch 22.
when building ove wood i like to coat the wood first with a nice layer of resin, allow it soak and get slighty tacky, then hang up my fabric, and applya a little more resin to soak it through..
and on another note, i dont know if it has been suggested to you for a reson or not, as i am not a structural engineer, but why did you choose fabric anyway? Woven fabric only has high strength properties across its strands therefore in only 2 directions. where a fiberglass matt has multidirectional strands providing far superior strength to that of woven. (though woven is far superior along the two directions) which leads me to believe you are more so fiberglassing for water tightness then you are strength, and for that purpose woven will be fine, you will have to acheive extra strngth some other way...i believe the larger tank builds i have watched used laminated pieces of 3/4 ply.
i assume woven was chosen for the 'neatness' factor...LOL if there is even one when doing fiberglass...it also will tend to lay out considerably smoother then mat over flat areas (other then at the edges, and that is where fiberglass mat excells) you may even want to employ mat for use in the corners, as it doesnt create seems when used properly thus eliminating mucho sanding...if you overlap two edges of fiberglass cloth (woven) you will get a nasty seem, especially with 6 oz (btw is that 6 oz/ sq foot or 6 oz/ sq meter/yard? two different measurement obviously the 6 oz/sq foot is considerably heavier) if you get fiberglass mat, you can tear it into pieces (considerably raising the mess factor) and thus eliminate any seems as the fryed edges will blend together and not leave any humps...
okay too much talking i am just going to sit back and watch this tank unfold now...
MORE PICS...
dsandfort
Premium Member
Just a note about fiberglassing. The first coat will leave a rough surface since the epoxy does not fill all the pockets in the glass weave (if you did it correctly). If you let this cure, it will need sanding before the next coat which will break up the weave strength since you will actually sand into the fiberglass. If you intend to put more fiberglass in the second coat, you need to do it before the first coat cures so the layers chemically bond. This is tough to do since the first coat will still be tacky.
That's why I went 1 coat fiberglass, 2 coats epoxy. That way, when I sanded, I only sanded epoxy and did not disrupt the fiberglass layer.
Just my thoughts.
Del
That's why I went 1 coat fiberglass, 2 coats epoxy. That way, when I sanded, I only sanded epoxy and did not disrupt the fiberglass layer.
Just my thoughts.
Del
NanoReefWanabe
Active member
if your using epoxy resin there is really no need to sand inbetween coats...the reason people sand polyester based resin between cured coats is that as it cures it produces wax which settles to the surface...this wax will interfer the bonding process between layers. also sanding between coats is simply to remove the wax..not to shape the fiberglass, so it can be done with 200+ grit sand paper...there is also solents available to remove wax produced by resin.
resin without any sort of 'fabric' in it ill crack garuanteed, it is extremely brittle..but i do see where your coming from with sanding into the fabric though...mind you if the resin and material are applied correctly, when sanding you wont be able to distinguish between resin and fabric, i havent worked with 6 oz woven for a long time since i much prefer using chop mat but they are pretty much the same in that respect...
another thing i think it is important to point out is that fiberglassing the inside of the tank is mainly for water tightness not strength...large flat panels of fiberglass have basically no lateral strength to them and they will flex like crazy, basically adding no strength to the back bottom or side panels of a tank...because you are at most going to be appling 1/4 inch in total of fiberglass, more likely 3/16 though it is going to be fairly weak...would you want to bounce on your truck cap? or an uninstalled 3 piece shower? 600 gallons of water weighs ~5300 pounds i am only 180 pounds and if i stand on my truck cap it deflects..
anyway..
resin without any sort of 'fabric' in it ill crack garuanteed, it is extremely brittle..but i do see where your coming from with sanding into the fabric though...mind you if the resin and material are applied correctly, when sanding you wont be able to distinguish between resin and fabric, i havent worked with 6 oz woven for a long time since i much prefer using chop mat but they are pretty much the same in that respect...
another thing i think it is important to point out is that fiberglassing the inside of the tank is mainly for water tightness not strength...large flat panels of fiberglass have basically no lateral strength to them and they will flex like crazy, basically adding no strength to the back bottom or side panels of a tank...because you are at most going to be appling 1/4 inch in total of fiberglass, more likely 3/16 though it is going to be fairly weak...would you want to bounce on your truck cap? or an uninstalled 3 piece shower? 600 gallons of water weighs ~5300 pounds i am only 180 pounds and if i stand on my truck cap it deflects..
anyway..
dsandfort
Premium Member
My experience is only with West System, and it is limited to boats and skiffs and 1 aquarium which has yet to see water. But, I follow their technical advice and it works. If you are using West System, and I think Tank Watch is, there are several points to be made.
When you recoat, you must do it after the liquid phase of the base coat and before the cured phase. This is known as the gel phase. It's the phase when the epoxy is about as tacky as masking tape. At this time, additional coats will chemically bond. Once it reaches the cured stage, there will be an amine "blush" on the surface of cured product. This MUST be removed. It is water soluble and can be washed off with a scour pad and clean water, or by sanding. The point here is that there IS SURFACE CONTAMINATION on cured West System epoxy since it is an amine-based resin/hardner system.
Once the epoxy is cured, additional coats will not chemically bond with the cured product. The surface must be sanded to allow for a proper mechanical bond. West System recommends 80 grit to provide the proper "tooth" for the mechanical bond.
Bottom line, recoat during the gel phase or be prepared to sand between coats. And...I'd recommend reading up on West System technical and application bulletins.
When you recoat, you must do it after the liquid phase of the base coat and before the cured phase. This is known as the gel phase. It's the phase when the epoxy is about as tacky as masking tape. At this time, additional coats will chemically bond. Once it reaches the cured stage, there will be an amine "blush" on the surface of cured product. This MUST be removed. It is water soluble and can be washed off with a scour pad and clean water, or by sanding. The point here is that there IS SURFACE CONTAMINATION on cured West System epoxy since it is an amine-based resin/hardner system.
Once the epoxy is cured, additional coats will not chemically bond with the cured product. The surface must be sanded to allow for a proper mechanical bond. West System recommends 80 grit to provide the proper "tooth" for the mechanical bond.
Bottom line, recoat during the gel phase or be prepared to sand between coats. And...I'd recommend reading up on West System technical and application bulletins.
tank watch
In Memoriam
I am using the west system. Since I only have limited time slots available to work on the tank, the epoxy ends up curing before I can resume work. I am sanding between coats. I am glad you mentioned the fact that I will be sanding the fiberglass mat itself. I guess another layer will be needed.
I went with the woven mat because it came in the 6oz. which was recommended, whereas the chopped mat I only found in 1.5 oz. So far I only have a few strips of glass over the corners on the bottom of the tank. I did use a small roller to wet the wood then apply the mat, then pour on a little resin, squeegee, and pray. Some areas came out beautiful where the weave can clearly be defined, other areas came out thicker. Lots of sanding ahead...
My former neighbor has built a few small boats back in his day, and he offered to help me lay the glass. I want to do it all (glassing and 3 coats of epoxy) in one day so I dont have to do all that sanding. I just need a day off now.
Guys thanks for all the tips. I was using 120 grit paper, but I will step up to 80 grit. It clogs so fast, I switched to drywall sandpaper that is all mesh. Pics coming soon, need batteries for the camera....
I went with the woven mat because it came in the 6oz. which was recommended, whereas the chopped mat I only found in 1.5 oz. So far I only have a few strips of glass over the corners on the bottom of the tank. I did use a small roller to wet the wood then apply the mat, then pour on a little resin, squeegee, and pray. Some areas came out beautiful where the weave can clearly be defined, other areas came out thicker. Lots of sanding ahead...
My former neighbor has built a few small boats back in his day, and he offered to help me lay the glass. I want to do it all (glassing and 3 coats of epoxy) in one day so I dont have to do all that sanding. I just need a day off now.
Guys thanks for all the tips. I was using 120 grit paper, but I will step up to 80 grit. It clogs so fast, I switched to drywall sandpaper that is all mesh. Pics coming soon, need batteries for the camera....
cbui2
Premium Member
hey Matt when we fiberglass custom boxes at the shop, my best method is laying matting flat on the floor in pc's you can work with, then soak the materials in resin of course not too much harder so you have time to play with it, then lay the materials down overlap all corners where strength is mostly needed. I would also use 2x4 around the perimeter just for extra support since so cheap, also add tons of support...lay it down as clean as possible to minimize sanding, IMO.
Similar threads
