Another option for red bugs

[Dustin1300]

Wow Dustin!! Going the extreme dipping!! Make sure no parasite lives!!

I would love to buy frags from you!!!

Yeah, I've got a few comments about my regimen being anal retentive but I'd rather be safe than sorry I guess:crazy1:

 

[Qwiv]

If that's the case then provide the specifics and what concentration was used as well as dip time. Not stating the facts and just saying it does not work is a bit misleading...

We don't have enough data to state something as fact. I was just stating that I have not seen any one test this on AEFW in the thread, but people are stating that is works on AEFW because they used the dip and don't have AEFW, which is incorrect logic and misleading to most of the people on RC.

My good friend takes care of client tanks and has not had successful results yet with AEFW (a client has an infestation) and multiple dosages and treatment times. We also have a few more in the area and local club that have not seen good results. I don't have the data from 3rd parties to post, as I only started reading this thread to help another person. I don't have red bugs or AEFW to test myself. Maybe there is a correct dosage, but I don't know of one at this time.

I don't see how my post is misleading while others here claiming this treats AEFW is not.

 

[divewsharks]

We don't have enough data to state something as fact. I was just stating that I have not seen any one test this on AEFW in the thread, but people are stating that is works on AEFW because they used the dip and don't have AEFW, which is incorrect logic and misleading to most of the people on RC.

My good friend takes care of client tanks and has not had successful results yet with AEFW (a client has an infestation) and multiple dosages and treatment times. We also have a few more in the area and local club that have not seen good results. I don't have the data from 3rd parties to post, as I only started reading this thread to help another person. I don't have red bugs or AEFW to test myself. Maybe there is a correct dosage, but I don't know of one at this time.

I don't see how my post is misleading while others here claiming this treats AEFW is not.

It does indeed work on AEFW, it does not work on eggs. I posted a few pages back it working on AEFW (the concentration used and pretty pics of AEFW dying).

 

[Dustin1300]

I don't see how my post is misleading while others here claiming this treats AEFW is not.

Others have tested it and found that it works. If your saying it does not work, then you most likely did not dose/dip correctly. That IS MISLEADING by just saying that it does not work on AEFW. If saying this dip method is not good and that's your agenda, then start a thread about it, otherwise try to contribute and not use a blanket statement saying something does not work when others have already had success.

 

[Whisperer]

We don't have enough data to state something as fact. I was just stating that I have not seen any one test this on AEFW in the thread, but people are stating that is works on AEFW because they used the dip and don't have AEFW, which is incorrect logic and misleading to most of the people on RC.

My good friend takes care of client tanks and has not had successful results yet with AEFW (a client has an infestation) and multiple dosages and treatment times. We also have a few more in the area and local club that have not seen good results. I don't have the data from 3rd parties to post, as I only started reading this thread to help another person. I don't have red bugs or AEFW to test myself. Maybe there is a correct dosage, but I don't know of one at this time.

I don't see how my post is misleading while others here claiming this treats AEFW is not.

I refer you to post # 37 and 39. I posted a pic there. There was also a short video documenting the AEFW falling off during the dip.

I respect your opinion, don't use it if you find it not helpful. Ask for refund from Bayer, if you wish. You are the first to claim otherwise. Very interesting to find out your agenda.

 

[bmhair03]

I tried the 10ml per 1/2 cup and it worked awesome. I think the people having no results aren't using the correct dosage.I first tried 5ml per 2cups due to being skeptical.Red bugs went about doing what they do. Then I reread the thread and tried the 10ml per 1/2 cup and BAM dead bugs. I believe a Min. dosage should be noted for the different formulas in the end, because a low dosage doesn't work.
Thanks keep up the research.

 

[ousnakebyte]

Local research here has shown that AEFW were not effected after the duration recommended.

As Dustin said, please post information regarding dosage and product used (mls per liter) and treatment times. Otherwise this information is not useful to us.

If that's the case then provide the specifics and what concentration was used as well as dip time. Not stating the facts and just saying it does not work is a bit misleading...

Yup, what he said.

We don't have enough data to state something as fact. I was just stating that I have not seen any one test this on AEFW in the thread, but people are stating that is works on AEFW because they used the dip and don't have AEFW, which is incorrect logic and misleading to most of the people on RC.

I don't see how my post is misleading while others here claiming this treats AEFW is not.

Have you read the entire thread and seen the photos/video of all the dead flatworms and red bugs? I have been contributing to this from very early on and have posted my results with pictures, dosage and product used, and treatment times - ad nauseum.

Here it is once again - 4 mls per liter for 15 minutes using the Bayer Advanced Home Pest Plus Germ Killer.

I have literally treated hundreds of corals over the past year using this and only A. hyacinthus reacts negatively - well, the flatworms, red bugs, bristle worms, brittle stars, chitions, amphipods, etc. also react negatively....

Yes, I have treated corals that did not show any signs of flatworms, and I have treated corals that did have confirmed flatworms. I continue to dip corals in this treatment today before I put any acros back in the display b/c we don't know exactly what the lifecycle is yet. I said all this above - read my post, as I don't want to type it again. However, I am almost comfortable enough to put acropora back into my display tank. But, I continue to dip each of my four guinea pig acros once a week for insurance.

But, this method is now my new prophylactic dip for incoming acropora, as well as rigorous quarantine b/c it does not kill the eggs.

Again, 4 mls per liter for 15 minutes, and I have confirmed killing of AEFW multiple times.


Dustin - I am so swamped at work that I have not been able to contribute to your spreadsheet - my apologies. But, I do want to mention that like others, if I am not 100% (or nearly...) positive on an identification, many will be listed as Acropora sp. I really don't like using the designer names - it's like nails on a chalkboard to me...

Cheers
Mike

 

[aoeBombcat]

Others have tested it and found that it works. If your saying it does not work, then you most likely did not dose/dip correctly. That IS MISLEADING by just saying that it does not work on AEFW. If saying this dip method is not good and that's your agenda, then start a thread about it, otherwise try to contribute and not use a blanket statement saying something does not work when others have already had success.

I think he didnt follow the whole thread or read all the posts, he is just here putting negative comments, and nip picking on others contribution.

 

[aoeBombcat]

I tried the 10ml per 1/2 cup and it worked awesome. I think the people having no results aren't using the correct dosage.I first tried 5ml per 2cups due to being skeptical.Red bugs went about doing what they do. Then I reread the thread and tried the 10ml per 1/2 cup and BAM dead bugs. I believe a Min. dosage should be noted for the different formulas in the end, because a low dosage doesn't work.
Thanks keep up the research.

bmhair03, are you sure 10ml for 1/2 cups?? That's very high dosage...

Are you using the Bayer Advance Complete or Bayer Advance Plus Germ Killer?

Because the Bayer Advance Compete is concentrated (atleast the one I got)

 

[aoeBombcat]

I have literally treated hundreds of corals over the past year using this and only A. hyacinthus reacts negatively - well, the flatworms, red bugs, bristle worms, brittle stars, chitions, amphipods, etc. also react negatively....

Also add to your list, snails also react negatively, but I was able to revive it by putting it in clean salt water after the 12 minutes dip.
I missed a snail on one one my rock and it when into the dip so that was my only test subject.

 

[aoeBombcat]

I went to Home depot and Lowes to check. I think I know the problem of why we can not an agreement on the dosage.

There are different sizes, also one is concentrated and one is regular.

Many people are using regular hence the higher dosage, and people like myself are using the concentrated version which uses lower dosage.

I think we need to put down if it is concentrated or regular so people can tell.

 

[Dustin1300]

aoeBombcat, might help if you supplied pictures of which is which...:thumbsup:

 

[aoeBombcat]

aoeBombcat, might help if you supplied pictures of which is which...:thumbsup:

Now you ask me!!!! Hahahaa

Here are the photos.
Bayer Advance Complete 40oz bottle - This one is the only concentrate bottle!!! - I surrounded the word concentrate for you all, so you know what and where to look for it.

The following 3 are not concentrated.
Bayer Advance Complete 32oz bottle - This is not concentrate!!!

Bayer Advance Plus Germ Killer 24oz bottle - This is not concentrate!!!

Bayer Advance Plus Germ Killer 1 Gal bottle - This is not concentrate!!!

 

[Qwiv]

I refer you to post # 37 and 39. I posted a pic there. There was also a short video documenting the AEFW falling off during the dip.

I respect your opinion, don't use it if you find it not helpful. Ask for refund from Bayer, if you wish. You are the first to claim otherwise. Very interesting to find out your agenda.

My agenda is to put Bayer out of business. :crazy1:
Post 37 and 39 are not talking about AEFW.
I have not seen any good data showing AEFW results, this thread lacks anything. I don't accept an observation of a flatworm falling off a coral as endorsement for a treatment without someone having evidence that they observed and actual AEFW, that the animal does not recover when removed from treatment and verification the effective rate of mortality. Its called skepticism in science. Not treating the eggs basally reduces the effectiveness to less tan or equal to other treatments on the market but at a cost advantage.

I read the thread. I am reporting that our observed results have not met the incredible wonder cure as themed in this thread, but we did see some good results as well so thank you for starting the topic. Take that for what you will, I really do not care. We are keeping records and will publish them if we find accurate and repeatable results.

 

[aoeBombcat]

My agenda is to put Bayer out of business. :crazy1:
Post 37 and 39 are not talking about AEFW.
I have not seen any good data showing AEFW results, this thread lacks anything. I don't accept an observation of a flatworm falling off a coral as endorsement for a treatment without someone having evidence that they observed and actual AEFW, that the animal does not recover when removed from treatment and verification the effective rate of mortality. Its called skepticism in science. Not treating the eggs basally reduces the effectiveness to less tan or equal to other treatments on the market but at a cost advantage.

I read the thread. I am reporting that our observed results have not met the incredible wonder cure as themed in this thread, but we did see some good results as well so thank you for starting the topic. Take that for what you will, I really do not care. We are keeping records and will publish them if we find accurate and repeatable results.

Yes cost advantage is already a start, it is already better then all other treatments on the market. Unless you have something that's better and cheaper. If you do have something please share.

Otherwise, why are testing new alternatives.

How about you go out and find a product that can both kill red bugs, AEFW and killing their eggs, oh and also it is safe to dose the whole tank instead of wasting your time on this thread that is not scientifically proven, no color balance photos, not enough proven evidence research and not enough dead red bugs or AEFW photos or videos.

And we will help you test after you have successfully tested your product.

 

[ousnakebyte]

Well, it looks like I now get to join the AEFW club. At least, I think these are limited to the quarantine tank - I hope. I will be vigorously checking acros in the display over the next few months.

I have been using Ivermectin to control Red Bugs, so I don't have any of those - just the flatworms, at this point.

I didn't take any pics of the corals, but this is what I found that fell off about 15 frags/small colonies:

I used three different mixes, but about the same ratios of concentration:

- 4mL per 1/2 liter or 8 mL per 1 Liter (~0.25 gallons)
- 80mL per 2.5 gallons (~10 Liters)
- 160 mL per 5 gallons (~20 Liters)

Dipping time was about 15 minutes.


This is the product I used:

I will update if I lose any corals.

Now, I have to deal with the eggs, which I have seen on the corals and frag plugs. I'm thinking of just cutting away the coral from any rocks/plugs and scrubbing any questional specks. Is that what others have done?

Whisperer - I can't thank you enough for posting this information.

Cheers
Mike

Okay, as promised, I found an ORA german blue polyp frag confirmed with AEFW. I tried the Ivermectin treatment described here:

Ivermectin to control Red Bugs

I used about the same concentration described in that treatment.

Here is what the frag looked like pre-dip; decent polyp extension:

15-20 minutes after placing in the dip, I found 5 AEFW that had fallen off; they were still moving around:

Here is what it looked like 4 hours into the treatment - you can still see the original 5 AEFW, but they were no longer moving:

I left the frag in the dip for the recommended 6 hours. Here's where the story takes a turn.

I then did this Bayer dip on the same frag for 10 minutes using 2mLs of the Bayer treatment in 1/2 liter of tank water. A few minutes after placing the frag in the dip, 4 more AEFW fell off and started writhing in pain (much to my pleasure...). So, it seems they were still alive.


Hmmmmm.... why did some fall off in the Ivermectin treatment and others were seemingly unaffected...? I did have the frag in with an air stone, not a powerhead. Perhaps if I had performed the dip in Ivermectin using a powerhead instead of an airstone, the remaining (presumably weakened?) AEFW would have had a more difficult time clinging on...? I should like to repeat this experiment.

Oh, and the frag is perfectly fine.

My hypothesis is that both this Bayer treatment and Ivermectin can be used to fight the AEFW (and Red Bugs too), but I think it is clear that the Bayer treatment is much stronger. However, it does seem to negatively affect some corals, at least... in the concentrations that have been tested.

I should like to try another dip with this Bayer treatment in a lower concentration on the same colony of A. hyacinthus to see if 1) it will still get rid of the AEFW and 2) if it does not harm the colony.

I should also like to repeat the Ivermectin study in the same concentration, but this time with stronger flow (powerhead) and then repeat with a follow-up dip in Bayer.

Now, I need more AEFW......... :thumbsup:

Cheers
Mike

I have not seen any good data showing AEFW results, this thread lacks anything. I don't accept an observation of a flatworm falling off a coral as endorsement for a treatment without someone having evidence that they observed and actual AEFW, that the animal does not recover when removed from treatment and verification the effective rate of mortality. Its called skepticism in science.

For convenience, I am quoting my previous posts above. And as a biologist, I understand and appreciate skepticism.

The polyclads in my photos above are "AEFW." Did I send them off to a lab after they "fell off" my corals? No. The evidence of bite marks and eggs laid on corals only in the genus Acropora in my aquariums was enough for me to make an "educated guess" on identification. And at the rate my corals were becoming breakfast, lunch and dinner - I didn't have time to wait for histology reports. I have also dipped genus Montipora, Pavona, Pocillipora, Seriatopora, Stylophora, Porites and Cyphastrea corals that were living alongside acropora b/c I was afraid I might miss the one random, "confused" flatworm that might be crawling from one coral to the next. Nothing like what I posted in the photos above fell off any other genus of coral - only acropora.

But yes, it's true. I did not have a polyclad taxonomist identify and describe the flatworms that were only eating my acropora corals and only laying eggs on acropora. So, I guess I am only in the 99% confidence interval...... :facepalm:

You'll note that I started by using a higher dosage than I recommend now. And yes, it is true that I have not been diligent at reporting all my methods and my trials in this thread. This is for two reasons - 1) lack of time to type everything into this thread, upload photos that end up being repetitive anyway and then post those too and 2) most people don't care about the methods and data; they want to know product, dosage and treatment time so they can kill their flatworms and other pests.

As for this product not killing flatworms... when I observe them to writhe around, stop moving, not move for hours and not move when poked and prodded for stimulation - and then start to literally fall apart the next day b/c I forgot to throw away the water in the container they were in, and it smells of death (yes, they were transferred via pipette to clean saltwater b/c I don't want to work around that Bayer stuff if I can help it)... well, I didn't post that "data" b/c I figured everyone here would give me a "duh" in response....

Through a rigorous removal and quarantine process and using this product for treatment, today I no longer have polyclad flatworms feeding on my acropora (I'll let you call them what you want). There are no fish in the system that learned to eat them. They did not wax and then wane on their own. I do not suspect any amazing immune response mounted by my acroporids. Yet today I once again have healthy acropora that have colored up and have started growing once again. So... you tell me what killed back the flatworms, if not for my using this treatment at 4mls per liter and a rigorous dipping regime and QT process.....? I can tell you that is was not my yelling profanity at the little pests...

Happily, I cannot conduct any more experiments for flatworm removal using this or any other product b/c I have not seen one since early last February.

Is there more than one species of polyclad that is an obligate acropora corallivore? Possibly - it wouldn't surprise me at all. But, the species that we find in aquaria has only just been described and even more recently, located on corals in the wild - I have email correspondence with Dr. Rawlinson about this. If you are curious, you can read about AEFW in her paper here:

Rawlinson, K.A., J. A. Gillis, R. E. Billings and E. H. Borneman. 2011. Taxonomy and life history of the Acropora-eating flatworm Amakusaplana acroporae nov. sp. (Polycladida: Prosthiostomidae). CORAL REEFS Volume 30, Number 3 (2011), 693-705.

Not treating the eggs basally reduces the effectiveness to less tan or equal to other treatments on the market but at a cost advantage.

This thread was started as an alternative to using milbemycin oxime - or Interceptor - for treating Tegastes sp. "red bugs." It was conveniently observed to also remove AEFW from corals as well. The fact that it kills two of arguably the three most hated coral pests in the hobby today - Red bugs, AEFW and Montipora nudibranchs - that it is easily obtainable for everyone and safe for nearly every coral is what makes it a wonderful treatment method.

But when you find that magic bullet that kills eggs, please let us know.

I am reporting that our observed results have not met the incredible wonder cure as themed in this thread

THEN POST WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING! No one here is going to steal your super-secret results and publish them before you can. It's very interesting to me (read skeptical) that you refuse to share your methods.

I can only hope that you give credit to Whisperer in your "publication."

Cheers
Mike

I can't believe I just wasted the time to defend that this treatment kills AEFW.... wow.

 

[bmhair03]

bmhair03, are you sure 10ml for 1/2 cups?? That's very high dosage...

Are you using the Bayer Advance Complete or Bayer Advance Plus Germ Killer?

Because the Bayer Advance Compete is concentrated (atleast the one I got)

Sorry that WAS a typo.
I currently use 10ml per 2 1/2 cups of tank water.
Bayer Advanced Complete Concentrate.
I did see 10ml per 1/2 cup of concentrate being used on here.I have dipped all my corals and will update the sheet when I complete my I'ds. Sorry for adding to all the confusion.
Thanks for catching that.

 

[Whisperer]

Wow! Very convincing argument there Mike. I couldn't explain it any better. But then, I do not feel the need. Skeptics will have to put up with losing corals or buy the expensive alternative. I am not pushing for this product. It is posted for everyone's benefit. One could have easily repackaged Bayer and profit from it. This is what this community is about, sharing ideas. I remember there were a lot of critics and skeptics earlier in this thread. They have been quiet for sometime now. I am afraid Qwiv will be joining them in their silence.
I do not need recognition (thanks, Mike) this thread is good enough for me. I am proud to share this and hope others will do the same if they come up with something that will benefit our community.

 

[ousnakebyte]

Wow! Very convincing argument there Mike. I couldn't explain it any better. But then, I do not feel the need. Skeptics will have to put up with losing corals or buy the expensive alternative. I am not pushing for this product. It is posted for everyone's benefit. One could have easily repackaged Bayer and profit from it. This is what this community is about, sharing ideas. I remember there were a lot of critics and skeptics earlier in this thread. They have been quiet for sometime now. I am afraid Qwiv will be joining them in their silence.
I do not need recognition (thanks, Mike) this thread is good enough for me. I am proud to share this and hope others will do the same if they come up with something that will benefit our community.

Your treatment spared what could have been major losses for me. I would not defend it as vehemently as I am had I not gone through what I have in the last year with these bastages. In addition, I have found what I believe to be Interceptor-resistant red bugs. This treatment and Ivermectin have now relieved me of those as well.

Does a true treatment protocol need to be narrowed down? Sure. Is the "optimal" dosage 3ml/L? 4ml/L? 2.765ml/L....? IS there even an optimal dosage? Does optimal dosage vary across different species of acropora or, if applicable across different species of Acropora polyclads, if they exist. For reasons I don't want to explain, I was not in a position to do this, but it was not for lack of knowing how - I needed them gone, and it worked for me as I narrowed my treatment down to what I have described.

To be skeptical is one thing. To ignore 17 pages of testimony with photographic and video evidence is bordering troll....

Mike

 

[aoeBombcat]

For convenience, I am quoting my previous posts above. And as a biologist, I understand and appreciate skepticism.

The polyclads in my photos above are "AEFW." Did I send them off to a lab after they "fell off" my corals? No. The evidence of bite marks and eggs laid on corals only in the genus Acropora in my aquariums was enough for me to make an "educated guess" on identification. And at the rate my corals were becoming breakfast, lunch and dinner - I didn't have time to wait for histology reports. I have also dipped genus Montipora, Pavona, Pocillipora, Seriatopora, Stylophora, Porites and Cyphastrea corals that were living alongside acropora b/c I was afraid I might miss the one random, "confused" flatworm that might be crawling from one coral to the next. Nothing like what I posted in the photos above fell off any other genus of coral - only acropora.

But yes, it's true. I did not have a polyclad taxonomist identify and describe the flatworms that were only eating my acropora corals and only laying eggs on acropora. So, I guess I am only in the 99% confidence interval...... :facepalm:

You'll note that I started by using a higher dosage than I recommend now. And yes, it is true that I have not been diligent at reporting all my methods and my trials in this thread. This is for two reasons - 1) lack of time to type everything into this thread, upload photos that end up being repetitive anyway and then post those too and 2) most people don't care about the methods and data; they want to know product, dosage and treatment time so they can kill their flatworms and other pests.

As for this product not killing flatworms... when I observe them to writhe around, stop moving, not move for hours and not move when poked and prodded for stimulation - and then start to literally fall apart the next day b/c I forgot to throw away the water in the container they were in, and it smells of death (yes, they were transferred via pipette to clean saltwater b/c I don't want to work around that Bayer stuff if I can help it)... well, I didn't post that "data" b/c I figured everyone here would give me a "duh" in response....

Through a rigorous removal and quarantine process and using this product for treatment, today I no longer have polyclad flatworms feeding on my acropora (I'll let you call them what you want). There are no fish in the system that learned to eat them. They did not wax and then wane on their own. I do not suspect any amazing immune response mounted by my acroporids. Yet today I once again have healthy acropora that have colored up and have started growing once again. So... you tell me what killed back the flatworms, if not for my using this treatment at 4mls per liter and a rigorous dipping regime and QT process.....? I can tell you that is was not my yelling profanity at the little pests...

Happily, I cannot conduct any more experiments for flatworm removal using this or any other product b/c I have not seen one since early last February.

Is there more than one species of polyclad that is an obligate acropora corallivore? Possibly - it wouldn't surprise me at all. But, the species that we find in aquaria has only just been described and even more recently, located on corals in the wild - I have email correspondence with Dr. Rawlinson about this. If you are curious, you can read about AEFW in her paper here:

Rawlinson, K.A., J. A. Gillis, R. E. Billings and E. H. Borneman. 2011. Taxonomy and life history of the Acropora-eating flatworm Amakusaplana acroporae nov. sp. (Polycladida: Prosthiostomidae). CORAL REEFS Volume 30, Number 3 (2011), 693-705.




This thread was started as an alternative to using milbemycin oxime - or Interceptor - for treating Tegastes sp. "red bugs." It was conveniently observed to also remove AEFW from corals as well. The fact that it kills two of arguably the three most hated coral pests in the hobby today - Red bugs, AEFW and Montipora nudibranchs - that it is easily obtainable for everyone and safe for nearly every coral is what makes it a wonderful treatment method.

But when you find that magic bullet that kills eggs, please let us know.




THEN POST WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING! No one here is going to steal your super-secret results and publish them before you can. It's very interesting to me (read skeptical) that you refuse to share your methods.

I can only hope that you give credit to Whisperer in your "publication."

Cheers
Mike

I can't believe I just wasted the time to defend that this treatment kills AEFW.... wow.

Mike, all I can say is WOW!!! Good job!!!

You probability spend more time writing this then dipping the corals in Bayer advance!!