Antibiotic treatment for a sick H. magnifica

[Reefvette]

There is good and bad bacteria in every living thing. That's how we are able to fight off some bad bacteria with the good stuff.

This is why i run a UV filter at a higher flow rate in my Display i am hoping kill off bacteria but not all bacteria cause some is actually good.

Like in humans there is always a presence of bacteria in the anemones stomach that i assume is used to help digest food. When you give antibiotics it kills off all bacteria in the stomach, assuming it does the same for the anemone.

There is a period with antibiotics treatment i called the purge. Its when the anemones starts to purge all the waste and dead bacteria. After that you should see a better looking nem.


I have tried 4 different QT's with hosting anemones spanning 4 species. Magnifica, Mertens, haddoni and gigantea.

Also i strongly advise my customers not to have more then one hosting anemone in a tank and not to add new nems once there is established nem in tank. The new anemone introduces new bacteria that the current one doesnt not have the ability to fight off. This is what causes the most problems.

 

[OrionN]

Reefvette,

I don't think there is any scientific base on what you wrote.

Our body have bacterial and other microorganism on the outside, on the skin. We also have bacterial and other microorganism in our GI track which is technically outside of our body. The GI track is basically a tube from the mouth to the anus. Inside this tube is outside of our body proper. Any organism that invade into our body is wipe out by our immune system or we get very sick and die if our immune system cannot maintain this barrier.

There is no normal organism that live in the tissue of the anemone other than this very special symbiotic relationship with the Zooxanthellae which populate the tissue of anemone.

 

[God.]

just my 2cents.. i would half to agree with minh.

but then again anemones are animals that have symbiotic relationship with the zooxanthellae. if they are technically animals, wouldnt they have to have a more complex anatomy involving different tissues and cells/antibodies to sustain its own "immune system" ? How could they survive with out immunity? beyond that, wouldnt it also require some sort of mechanism to physically/(chemically?) digest the food it eats that could possibly be damaged from the antibiotic? or does this where gram + and gram- comes into play?

EDIT: BTW the anemone mentioned in the thread looks 10X better. i see alot of anemones working at the LPS in my neck of the woods. Its obvious when anemones are improving, and by gosh this one certainly appears to be.

 

[Rippinfrags]

Hey Minh congrats on your success thus far and thanks for the detailed write up. Quick question, when you do a water change are you using freshly made saltwater or water from one of your tanks?

 

[BonsaiNut]

I don't think there is any scientific base on what you wrote.

Hi Minh; I'm gonna come to Reefvette's defense on this one. Here's a paper on S. haddoni that explores using anemone anti-microbials for application in new medicine.

Antimicrobial activity of tissue and associated bacteria from benthic sea anemone Stichodactyla haddoni against microbial pathogens.

 

[BonsaiNut]

By the way, I would consider adding a venturi to that hospital tank. I have found that in tanks without a surface skimmer, you can accumulate proteins on the water surface that cut oxygen exchange. I always run a venturi, or even better, drop a in small in-tank protein skimmer. Since you have one side of the tank partitioned off, a small protein skimmer would serve two purposes - keep the water cleaner while increasing available oxygen.

 

[OrionN]

Hey Minh congrats on your success thus far and thanks for the detailed write up. Quick question, when you do a water change are you using freshly made saltwater or water from one of your tanks?

I use water from the quarantine tank (QT) for water change. The reason I did this is because the QT water is heated. I did not want change the environment of the sick anemone very much and shock it with larger temperature change every time I change the water. QT temp set at 80 degree and hospital tank (HT) set at 80 degree. Salinity at 35 ppt.
Everyday, I replaced evaporated water in the HT. Then I drain 5 gal from HT(total volume of 10 gal). I then siphon 5 gal from the QT to the HT. Replace 5 gal of water to the QT. Then I added 125 mg ciprofloxacin directly to the HT by dissolve the tablet right in front of the PH.

 

[OrionN]

By the way, I would consider adding a venturi to that hospital tank. I have found that in tanks without a surface skimmer, you can accumulate proteins on the water surface that cut oxygen exchange. I always run a venturi, or even better, drop a in small in-tank protein skimmer. Since you have one side of the tank partitioned off, a small protein skimmer would serve two purposes - keep the water cleaner while increasing available oxygen.

I though about this but decided not to do it.
Better Oxygenation is great but with the tank as is and the high circulation, I did not think it is lacking. The main reason for me not to do it is that I am not sure how the antibiotic concentration is effect by skimming. It is likely remove by skimming, given the complex and larger size of the Ciprofolxacin molecule.

About the article you posted, let me review it and will give my though on it later today. Thanks.

 

[OrionN]

After review the study posted by Bonsainut, this is my impression of this study.

The authors trying to find molecules that have antibacterial effects of human pathogen. Knowing that there seem to be bacterial isolated from anemones, and that microorganisms have methods of inhibiting their competitors, and guessing that anemones have their own defense mechanisms to fight bacterial and fungal infections, they set out to see if they can demonstrate grown inhibition of various isolate against human and fish pathogens.

First they demonstrated that they can isolate bacterial from anemones. They did not give any information about how they did this other than stated that they isolate CFU (colony forming units) from tentacles and from the column of the anemones. They did not stated if the anemones were healthy, taken directly from the wild or in holding tank and sick or sicken with transport. How these anemones were keep prior to harvest. Method of harvest of these anemones. How they account for contamination from sea water. We know that the sea water is full of organisms and bacterial. How they be sure that the bacterial on the outside or inside of the anemones.

What they did demonstrate is that extract form the anemones inhibit human pathogens, and inhibit fish pathogens even more. Extracts from the bacterial they isolated also inhibit these pathogens. They recommended that further studies focus on finding these molecules as source for new useful antibiotic.

For me, this article give no insight into what pathogens infect the anemones.

To be fair, the objective of the study is to try to find new and useful antibiotic molecules. The objection I pointed out above is not important toward the objective of the study. Much more important for the authors, and they go into it extensively, is which method of extractions either preserved or destroyed the antimicrobial effects of the molecule they wanted. This would give insights into the structures of the molecules they are trying to isolate.

From studies like this drug company would invest money and come up with our new magical antibiotics. After all, penicillin was isolated from a fungus. This fungus use the original penicillin to inhibit bacterial growth so that it can gain the upper hand.

 

[OrionN]

Update.
I wanted to leave the anemone in treatment tank off antibiotic for a week or two, but the light set I ordered (used 150W MH) arrive broken Friday, so I don't really have any choice but to put him back in quarantine tank which is a reef. I put him back this PM. He looks well, like a well Magnifica should look. here is a picture 5 minutes after transfer him over.

If he still look well tomorrow PM, I will start to feed him.

Here is a picture
10/14/2012 5 mins after transfer him back to QT

 

[OrionN]

This AM. It is a "picture of healthy"

10/15/2012 in QT tank. Looks as healthy as a healthy Magnifica should look. Very small Magnifica, as can be seen by the normal size coffee mug.

 

[ct_vol]

Great turn around... I've not seen a Mag that small come into any of the LFS in IL or TN... I love the ones with the Purple or Red bases... Good luck in the recovery process... :thumbsup:

 

[worm5406]

OK Question... (Not taking over thread hahaha)

What should the primary diet be then??

Lets say I skimm too much and I want to make sure it gets a good diet...

Should I use zooplankton soaked shrimp?

 

[OrionN]

Thanks guys.

Plankton is not food for anemone. Any fresh seafood is food for Magnifica, smaller pieces are better. I don't feed silverside to my anemones.

 

[worm5406]

Yeah that is what I though... (just checking)

I dont feed silverside either. Since I read it on here a while ago. I have a whole pack already open though, that I need to get rid of. I wonder if the kids will eat it.

 

[JMLewis]

Why dont you feed silversides?

 

[OrionN]

They are smelly, meaning spoiled. Fish food just don't get the care it need in transport. If it happen to thaw out they just refreeze it and sell. Small fish, full gut means that they spoiled very quickly. Spoiled mean not healthy for my anemone. Badly spoiled mean death to the anemone that eat it.
Anemone does not have a brain so it cannot pick and choose food. If there is certain chemical in the stuff that touch its tentacles, it will eat the food spoiled or not.

 

[2dawghouse]

Question OrionN, can I dose my entire DT? Im really looking to add one more Mag to my mag colony tank. And if so what should I be careful with and looking for? And I hate to ask but if not, why?
Thanks, Mike

 

[OrionN]

The whole ecosystem of our reef tanks depends on bacterial. Dosing the whole DT with antibiotic will wreck the whole system and thus not recommended.

I would set up a treatment/quarantine tank. You need to get light to this tank since you really need the high light to keep Magnifica happy. I found 20 W 14000K LED flood light for about 40 dollars. I use this light plus one of the florescent light bulb for my treatment tank. This plus natural light seem to keep my Magnifica stay put but craw to the side of the cup facing the window to get full sunlight.

When adding a new Magnifica to a tank with other Magnifica, I would keep the new Mag in a separate system and make sure that it is healthy first before risking disease exposure to the ones you have established.

I notice that you are in Houston. Fishland (on Westheimer) have a 24 inches cube aquarium (60 gal) for about 120 dollars. I kick myself several times already for not getting it the last time I am in Houston. I would get this and get some decent light and it would be a perfect quarantine/treatment tank.

 

[2dawghouse]

Thanks Orion, yeah I didnt think about crashing the bilogical filter dosing the whole system.

So you know Houston pretty well? Fishland has great fish thats for sure. I live about 15 mins west of them.

But I have a ton of spare acrylic, I will just build myself one. Does the mag need the natural light while its being dosed meds or can strong reef lighting suffice?

Also, i talked to some people who know you well down there at aquarium masters. I have tried my hardest to acquire a yellow mag (i think you got yours from them). And after hunting all over Ive come to the conclusion that...I may never have one lol. They are the holy grails of holy grails lol.