Any Ideas would help !

[MandiW]

Hi

Wondered if anyone could shed some light on a problem.
I have received a pair of Barbouris and a pair of Janss pipefish as I ordered.
1 pipefish was slighty squashed in transit and never looked right and died pretty quickly, the other was okay although was never seen eating and died the following day. The Barbouris did eat but then in a couple of days the male started looking out of control, he was hitching most of the time but would then try to swim and do it in a completely out of control manner. He was then seen even when hitching laying on the sand, he became worse very quickly, then female started acting the same way and then they both passed only a matter of days after arriving.
I have several marine tanks so am well up on testing water etc, and the tank they went in had been running for a long time waiting for them was completely cylced. It was tested again the morning that they came and was
Temp 24C
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Salinity 1.022
Oxygen 7-8
Tested again after all died and all read the same.
These were obtained from a trusted source and all were captive bred, I am completely stumped as to what happened.
They did arrive (they were shipped to me) without a heatpack and were very cold when they arrived. Unfortunately I did not think to test the water in the shipping bag which I should have done.
In the tank is a cleaning crew, and some coral frags, cleaning crew fine coral frags blooming.
Anything that could shed some light would be very greatfully received as this is a long awaited arrival that didn't last more than a couple of days. I have wanted seahorses for years and finally they arrive and am now starting to wonder if was the right thing to do.
Look forward to any suggestions.

 

[jeff@zina.com]

Acclimation? What was the original shipper's salinity? First guess is they didn't survive shipping, it just took a while for them to realize it.

Jeff

 

[MandiW]

Hi
Thank you for your post.
As they were so cold when they came, they were floated for 40/45mins to ensure they were upto temp properly. And then drip acclimated for around 2 1/2 hours, this is alot longer that I would normally drip fish but wanted to ensure that they were well acclimated after their trip.
Salinity, they were the salinity that we were told they had been kept at, I must admit I didn't think to test the shipping water which I really wish I had done. As someone did suggest that it might be due to toxicity of the shipping water that caused their loss.
I was shocked that they had no heat pack in transit as it is very cold here frost on the cars first thing for a few mornings last week when they arrived.
I wish it was water quality or something as at least I would know what the problem was, but the water is fine. There are no other fish in that tank as this was just going to be for pipes and seahorses at the moment.
The tank is a 130ltr tank and only had the two pairs in it. At the moment I have a load of river shrimp in there as I was cleaning out their tank so put them in there and they have been in there a week and seem to be having a wonderful time
I just can't seem to come up with what went wrong. The supplier that they came from says that one lost in transit is possible but to lose all four due to transit is not possible and that it must be something with the tank or water !! But I can't find out what it might be if it is in fact a problem my end.
Mandi

 

[TamiW]

The first thing I see is that the temperature is too high. Bacteria proliferate at higher temperatures and seahorses are very sensitive to bacterial infections. Most seahorse keepers keep their tank around 72 - 74 degrees.

I suspect the chilling during shipping didn't help matters either, it probably weakened their immune response due to stress.

 

[ReefNutPA]

One other point.... I never drip acclimate seahorses. As soon as the shipping bag is open and air hits the water, the pH will plummet making the ammonia in the bag that much more deadly. Over a 2 1/2 hour drip, that is a long time for seahorses and pipes to be swimming in ammonia-plagued water without having negative effects IMO.

Tom

 

[rayjay]

Cold shipping is not a big issue IMO if the water doesn't go below 60° for too long.
Slow acclimation can be a problem but mainly when the seahorses have been in the shipping container for quite some time.
If they've been in the bag for a day or so, then fast acclimation is the thing to do, or, add some ClorAm-X or similar product as soon as the bag is opened.
When the bag is opened the pH starts to go back up again and ammonia becomes more deadly as the pH rises.
If your s.g. is lower than what the seahorses were in previously then the drop is not a problem. It's mainly a problem when going UP not down.
While in the very short term, it probably wasn't the cause, but the fact is that most pipefish are wild caught with pathogens that seahorses succumb to quite often.
Your temperature is only a tad high as range recommended these days would be from 68° to 74°F for tropical species like the erectus.
If you were told they were true captive bred, ask who the breeder is.
There are all too many "trusted sources" that should not be trusted.
Seahorse keeping is not an easy task even when you buy true captive bred, but buying anything else, and/or not setting up a system that gives them the best chance for survival, leave chances of success in the very low percentile.
Check out the links at the bottom of MY THOUGHTS ON SEAHORSE KEEPING as those links have excellent information for beginner seahorse keepers and are authored by many experienced seahorse keepers as well as a commercial breeder.

 

[DanU]

Sadly, you will never know the exact cause for sure. It can only be speculative.

A couple of things do stand out though. Based on the description of the slightly squashed pipefish, the packaging may not have been as good as it could have been or they may have had some excessively rough handling. Either would have caused stress to the animals.

I don't believe testing the water in the bag, except for temperature, would have given you any really useful info to go on. During shipping the parameters are going to change and will immediately change once you open the bag. Salinity is not real critical for seahorses as they handle salinity changes fairly well.

As mentioned, seahorses (and pipefish) typically handle cooler temperatures quite well provided it is a gradual decrease. I don't know your location and the temperature ranges to compare to, but a properly insulated box should have prevented a rapid decrease in temperature. The packaging may have ended exposed longer than is normal during the shipping process. This could coincide with the rough handling for a double whammy effect. In general, I find the cooler temperatures aren't too much of an issue if the temperature comes up slowly. A rapid increase in temperature, more than 5 degrees in 45 minutes or so, will become an extreme stressor to the seahorses. You will often see some funky activity as if they have gone into some type of neurologic shock. When there is a significant difference in temperature, it is best to leave the bag out unopened to acclimate slowly to the temperature before floating it. This is difficult as the natural tendency is to immediately bring the temperature to what is considered a normal range and it is difficult for most leave them in the bag.

After equalizing temperatures, you will have less stress to the seahorses if you open the bag and immediately move them from the bag to the tank. A drip acclimation will actually increase the stress on the animals. Increasing the time of the drip will actually increase the stress further.

Lastly, even the best of vendors can unintentionally ship sub par specimens. Given that you had 2 different species, this would seem less likely from a good vendor.

Dan

 

[timinnl]

Sorry for your loss. May I please have more info into how they were packed? How was the customer service before you order them, while you were waiting for them & now?

Tim

 

[timinnl]

Sorry for your loss. May I please have more info into how they were packed? How was the customer service before you order them, while you were waiting for them & now? What was the temp? Were you home for the delivery? Are you in the states or the EU?

Tim

 

[louicopp]

I'm going to guess that you are in the UK from things that you have said and that you got your order from a certain place in Cheshire?

 

[MandiW]

Hi Louicopp
I have pm'd you as I don't want to name location or names on the forum as this would not be fair.
Regards
Mandi

 

[MandiW]

Hi Timinnl
i'll pm with some of the details as I don't want to post details on the forum, as again it wouldn't be fair. But I can't give name of supplier as yet as this wouldn't be right.

 

[timinnl]

Greetings from Amsterdam,

I think you had four factors going against you:

1: Poorly packed package and not enough packing material to insulate against cold weather.

2: Shipping without heatpads. Here in NL the temp is now between 10C/50F to 8C/46.4F during the night. You mention frost, so I think the temp was lower in your case.

3: Method of shipping.

4: Lack of customer service & post sale service.

I hope that you will have contact with them soon and that you get treated fairly.

All the best,

Tim

 

[MandiW]

Thanks for your post Tim

Sadly I have heard from the supplier and they are only prepared to offer a replacement for one pipe not the other pipe or the Barbs as apparently all the rest of their stock are fine !! I should think so they have not been sent out in the cold via parcel post ! I do also have a pic of the first pipe that went that I beleive shows it seriously underweight which I am sure it did not go like this in the shipping bag. Being that underweight and trapped as well as stressed by shipping completely sealed this ones fate.
I will keep on it but fear that I will have to look elsewhere for my horses.
I was very shocked at the lack of customer care/communications provided by this 'reputable' supplier.
Thanks for your input I will keep at it.
Mandi

 

[timinnl]

Hi Mandi,

I am sadden to hear about the level of non service that you have receive from them. We yanks have a saying. Wham! Bam! Thank You Madam! They got their money, you got screwed.

I will PM you some sites in Germany. They have the same problem with this vendor.

Kind Regards,

Tim