anybody in URS remove any DSB?
- Thread starter Gary Majchrzak
- Start date
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Because I have several large sand dwelling anemones, I need to keep some areas of deeper sand around them. How much sand I need to retain for them is still one of my unanswered questions. Areas away from the anemones will have a shallow sandbed.
I know lots of people think the "DSB going bad" thing is a myth.
The growth rate on several of my SPS corals has increased with each new patch of DSB I remove. The only husbandry changes I've made in the past few months is removing DSB and running phosphate remover.
I know lots of people think the "DSB going bad" thing is a myth.
The growth rate on several of my SPS corals has increased with each new patch of DSB I remove. The only husbandry changes I've made in the past few months is removing DSB and running phosphate remover.
drtango
New member
Gary-
Do you have any xenia?? When I took out about a third of my sandbed, acro's looked better, xenia melted away in 2 weeks. Now that the remaining sand bed is getting scummy again, xenia is reappearing. I think xenia thrives in a high organic/po4 tank--I've never been able to get it to grow in a new tank
Next tank, still under consideration, will be "starboard"
JT
Do you have any xenia?? When I took out about a third of my sandbed, acro's looked better, xenia melted away in 2 weeks. Now that the remaining sand bed is getting scummy again, xenia is reappearing. I think xenia thrives in a high organic/po4 tank--I've never been able to get it to grow in a new tank
Next tank, still under consideration, will be "starboard"
JT
drtango
New member
Here's the mother of all barebottom vs DSB threads--my reef thrived with a DSB for 3 years, was OK for one, is falling apart year 5, so DSB is coming out. I DEFINATELY is a nutrient, PO4 and organic sponge that, like any sponge, when full releases the crud back into the tank.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=223301
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=223301
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I have Xenia. I've yet to see any melt away in my tank without the help of some scissors, though. It sounds like you've been having some fun of your own with sand removal! Starboard, eh? That should be interesting.drtango said:
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I don't imagine there are very many people removing DSB's from 7 year old reef aquariums, so I thought I'd add to this thread. In each area of sand that I plunge the gravel vac, a patch of cyano develops the next day. I'm using phosphate removers in conjunction with removing sand and detritus with a gravel vac during water changes. {Water changes alone did not produce the results I am now having.} I did a big skimmer upgrade. I've created a settling zone in my sump where I routinely remove detritus that falls out of suspension. Growth of certain {mostly SPS} corals and coralline algae has definitely picked up, and it might be wishful thinking, but Xenia growth has seemed to slow.
drtango- what do you think of this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27305&highlight=DSB
drtango- what do you think of this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27305&highlight=DSB
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drtango
New member
Gary-
I think I got taken by all the so called "science" of sandbeds. I've got a biology degree, learned and forgot all sorts of organic and biochemistry, and there's just no way a sandbed, in a closed system, will support a tank forever. Eutrification will occur in any closed aquatic system, even a farm pond. "Boomer"'s barebottom approach is making alot more sense to me....wish I had thought about all this a little more when I set up my tank five years ago. A removable sandbed, in a large sump, might make sense--where you renew the sand just like you would do a water change. A bottom draining plenum is another interesting idea.
I've got a 180 coming together, going with "Starboard", lots of flow etc.--will be interesting to see if the growth takes off again. I stopped removing sandbed a couple of months ago when I decided to upgrade, still have 3-4 inches, and I'm right back where I started from...and my xenia is re-appearing!!
John
I think I got taken by all the so called "science" of sandbeds. I've got a biology degree, learned and forgot all sorts of organic and biochemistry, and there's just no way a sandbed, in a closed system, will support a tank forever. Eutrification will occur in any closed aquatic system, even a farm pond. "Boomer"'s barebottom approach is making alot more sense to me....wish I had thought about all this a little more when I set up my tank five years ago. A removable sandbed, in a large sump, might make sense--where you renew the sand just like you would do a water change. A bottom draining plenum is another interesting idea.
I've got a 180 coming together, going with "Starboard", lots of flow etc.--will be interesting to see if the growth takes off again. I stopped removing sandbed a couple of months ago when I decided to upgrade, still have 3-4 inches, and I'm right back where I started from...and my xenia is re-appearing!!
John
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
This "burping" effect of phosphates... I wonder if it can happen {to a lesser extent, obviously} with simply live rock as well as shallow sandbed. Remember 'old tank syndrome' {OTS}? Lots of blame was attributed to extinction of species in a closed system, etc.etc. I wonder how much burping phosphates contribute to OTS. It's difficult to believe the transformation occuring in my aquarium as I remove DSB and run phosphate remover. There are lessons to be learned here. If something in your aquarium can absorb/adsorb phosphates and store them to be released at a later point in time, you might want to try and avoid it from happening- or at least minimize the risk. You know those threads that ask, "If you could do it all over again, what would you do differently?" This time I have an answer!
drTango,
you are so right about zenia liking a high organic/po4 load in a tank. I recently tore down my 90 with a 3 year old sandbed where zenia was thriving. I had it growing everywhere!!!!! in fact I made so much credit off my zenia at the lfs it payed for my new tank! and then some. Anyway when I moved over to the new tank which is full of ro/di water all zenia minus one piece died right off. My new tank has just enough cc to cover the glass and that's it. no more sandbeds for me!! Carting 350lbs of wet sand to a dumpster is no fun!!! Gary good luck
Josh
you are so right about zenia liking a high organic/po4 load in a tank. I recently tore down my 90 with a 3 year old sandbed where zenia was thriving. I had it growing everywhere!!!!! in fact I made so much credit off my zenia at the lfs it payed for my new tank! and then some. Anyway when I moved over to the new tank which is full of ro/di water all zenia minus one piece died right off. My new tank has just enough cc to cover the glass and that's it. no more sandbeds for me!! Carting 350lbs of wet sand to a dumpster is no fun!!! Gary good luck
Josh
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Josh- The hairs on your fire coral frag are at full extension as I type this post. Life on the reef is good. I am always going to run a PO4 remover in my system from now on.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Due to PO4 remover and DSB remover!JBrown said:
bdavis
Premium Member
Was looking for some place to purchase some Rowa Phos and ran across this discussion. I note that Gary has already been there but is also noteworthy that URS may do something like the NJ club if we can get some folks together and if it proves out that it is indeed the same stuff.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...erpage=25&highlight=rowaphos buy&pagenumber=1
Bob
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...erpage=25&highlight=rowaphos buy&pagenumber=1
Bob
Hunnydusst
New member
Hmmmmm as a newbie..... I now have the sand bed question on top of the lighting question. I need to get this all figured out within the next week. Everyone with a running reef talk amongst yourselves and get back to me on an answer. 
LOL! While these guy's have been busy ripping their DSB's out, I recently started up a new tank, and the first thing I did (after getting it on the stand) was add in 4 inches of the stuff.
You will find opinions vary widely, and some folks get very.... shall we say, wrapped up? In the whole philosophy. Try to take what you read with a grain of salt, and make your own decisions based on what data you can find. Try not to use anecdotal evidence where facts can be substituted.
- Mac
You will find opinions vary widely, and some folks get very.... shall we say, wrapped up? In the whole philosophy. Try to take what you read with a grain of salt, and make your own decisions based on what data you can find. Try not to use anecdotal evidence where facts can be substituted.
- Mac
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
The talk is over. Search up "DSB" for tons of info on the matter. {And I do mean matter!} Here's one thread to read:Hunnydusst said:Hmmmmm as a newbie..... I now have the sand bed question on top of the lighting question. I need to get this all figured out within the next week. Everyone with a running reef talk amongst yourselves and get back to me on an answer.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263482&highlight=DSB
Good luck figuring it all in a week!
The bottom line is that BB, SSB and DSB all "work".
A DSB provides more hiding area in an aquarium for phosphates {detritus} to accumulate. Accumulated phosphates can flux {or "burp"} once a significant level is reached. Phosphates and ortho phosphates are almost impossible to detect with test kits. Accumulated Phosphates {even in low levels} inhibit calcification in stony corals and slow coral growth. {I've been through this personally.} I'm not busting my hump removing sandbed and spending money on expensive Rowa Phos for no reason.
{edit: I also recently upgraded my skimmer and macroalgae scrubbing capacity- all to combat accumulated phosphates.}
I think the research/threads by Bomber and YellowTang are probably among the most important that I've read anywhere.
I'm very sure time will prove them correct to many unbelieving reefkeepers. Hey- my own DSB was working great a couple of years ago!
Now, with each detritus laden bucket of sand I remove and each bag of phosphate remover I change out I can literally see the difference in my aquarium- primarily in stony corals.
If you've gone through this, it's really amazing.
If you go DSB- plan on "cleaning" it once the sponge is full.
Personally, unless you are planning on keeping animals that require a DSB- I wouldn't even consider putting one in. JMO.
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drtango
New member
I think the DSB theory has held together these past few years for one simple reason---reefers have an unending desire to upgrade tanks!!!
It's hard to find somebody who's had the same tank, same sandbed running well for more than 3-4 years, most everybody moves or upgrades in that time period. My tank was set up over 5 years ago, and I've had all of the DSB problems mentioned above for at least the past 18 months. Gary has one of the older tanks around an he's obviously having trouble.
Look at it like refinancing your mortgage--if you're going to be in the same tank for only 3-5 years, put in a sandbed, looks nice. If your in for the long haul, consider bare bottom or plan on swapping the entire bed out in a few years, realizing by that time your rock will also be fully saturated with bad stuff.
John
It's hard to find somebody who's had the same tank, same sandbed running well for more than 3-4 years, most everybody moves or upgrades in that time period. My tank was set up over 5 years ago, and I've had all of the DSB problems mentioned above for at least the past 18 months. Gary has one of the older tanks around an he's obviously having trouble.
Look at it like refinancing your mortgage--if you're going to be in the same tank for only 3-5 years, put in a sandbed, looks nice. If your in for the long haul, consider bare bottom or plan on swapping the entire bed out in a few years, realizing by that time your rock will also be fully saturated with bad stuff.
John
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