Anyone else seen this thread yet?
- Thread starter Spyder_78
- Start date
cloakerpoked
New member
I have two minds about what's being said.
1.) What he is saying is absolutely correct. We have been careless, wreckless, and have no doubt devastated the coral reefs. There are still fish that are being collected by cyanide techniques, which does nobody any good. There are also people that I know who figure if their target manderin survives for 3 months, they can just afford to replace him with a new one. That's only $100/year after all. Some people and retailers (read: Petco, other big box retailers) in this trade take their responsibility so lightly that their conduct is reprehensible, and the fact that they still deal in these fish mean that we as consumers are failing miserably as a whole in taking OUR responsibility seriously.
2.) Having said that, his solution to this problem is nowhere near correct or productive. To outlaw the aquarium trade is not a solution that seems to be in line with any of our constitutional rights, and also ignores the fact that many of us are conscientious consumers who prefer to purchase all things from other hobbyists rather than from retailers when possible. It very well may happen that if these guys' liberal gloom and doom prophecies about climate change are true (and I don't happen to believe that they are) then hobbyists will be the only ones able to provide ecosystems that are sustainable to these animals anyway. So targeting hobbyists in general is not necessarily a productive solution.
So what is the solution? I believe that we need to become more active in our promotion and patronage of only retailers and collectors who are practicing sustainable and responsible collection practices and overall retail tank conditions. In order for this to take place, there is one thing that we need in greater abundance in this hobby, and that is education. We need greater exposure and education on the reprehensible practices of many chain stores, as well as some smaller stores. We need to take an active role in pressuring these stores to improve their standards, or refuse patronage to them, despite the discount they may offer. We also need to be better educated on where these fish are coming from, and how they are collected, and again to push for responsible collection and transportation practices, even if it means paying more for each specimen. Unfortunately, this will probably never happen. We already have sold our soul countless times in this country, sacrificing quality standards for cheaper solutions (anyone bought American-made steel recently?) This is one case where even though I am far from independently wealthy, I'd be willing to pay 50-100% more per fish if I could know that they were coming from responsible vendors and collectors. This is a sacrifice we all need to be willing to make if we want our grandchildren to be able to enjoy this hobby as we do, and this is something that I absolutely believe.
1.) What he is saying is absolutely correct. We have been careless, wreckless, and have no doubt devastated the coral reefs. There are still fish that are being collected by cyanide techniques, which does nobody any good. There are also people that I know who figure if their target manderin survives for 3 months, they can just afford to replace him with a new one. That's only $100/year after all. Some people and retailers (read: Petco, other big box retailers) in this trade take their responsibility so lightly that their conduct is reprehensible, and the fact that they still deal in these fish mean that we as consumers are failing miserably as a whole in taking OUR responsibility seriously.
2.) Having said that, his solution to this problem is nowhere near correct or productive. To outlaw the aquarium trade is not a solution that seems to be in line with any of our constitutional rights, and also ignores the fact that many of us are conscientious consumers who prefer to purchase all things from other hobbyists rather than from retailers when possible. It very well may happen that if these guys' liberal gloom and doom prophecies about climate change are true (and I don't happen to believe that they are) then hobbyists will be the only ones able to provide ecosystems that are sustainable to these animals anyway. So targeting hobbyists in general is not necessarily a productive solution.
So what is the solution? I believe that we need to become more active in our promotion and patronage of only retailers and collectors who are practicing sustainable and responsible collection practices and overall retail tank conditions. In order for this to take place, there is one thing that we need in greater abundance in this hobby, and that is education. We need greater exposure and education on the reprehensible practices of many chain stores, as well as some smaller stores. We need to take an active role in pressuring these stores to improve their standards, or refuse patronage to them, despite the discount they may offer. We also need to be better educated on where these fish are coming from, and how they are collected, and again to push for responsible collection and transportation practices, even if it means paying more for each specimen. Unfortunately, this will probably never happen. We already have sold our soul countless times in this country, sacrificing quality standards for cheaper solutions (anyone bought American-made steel recently?) This is one case where even though I am far from independently wealthy, I'd be willing to pay 50-100% more per fish if I could know that they were coming from responsible vendors and collectors. This is a sacrifice we all need to be willing to make if we want our grandchildren to be able to enjoy this hobby as we do, and this is something that I absolutely believe.
Spyder_78
Member
That group drives me nuts, I do not disagree with their causes but their tactics are garbage at best. The thing that worries me about them turning their attention to us is their complete inability to tell the truth and base their research that they bring to the public on any solid facts, and people seem to blindly gobble it up like the gospel.
acer
New member
Glad I did not read it- I think that most "environmentalists" have an agenda. However, that doe not excuse the facts = this hobby or "trade" has good and bad within it and has in the past been less good than bad- like any other. Besides one of the the most devastating problems that are "man-made" to the reef is pollution - much of which is from run off from farming. So, should we out-law farming?!?!
EliWhitney314
New member
I thought that was a little intense. I don't know where they got the idea that most hobbyist only keep their fish alive for a year.
Jabberwock
New member
I'd actually like to see the industry data concerning how many hobbyists fail and/or quit saltwater fish keeping within 1 year. It would also be nice to know how long the "average" hobbyist stays in the hobby. This might legitimize or de-legitimize some of these points in the article.
cloakerpoked
New member
Think about how many people you find who are irresponsible with the whole thing. There are a lot of them. You just don't find them on here, people who bother to take the time to learn about the hobby typically aren't the problem.
BBoley24
New member
That's true... I never really dealt with many of the people that got into the hobby because they thought it looked cool. I suppose us saltwater nerds that discuss this stuff on forums are the creme of the crop when it comes to really caring about the stuff. Come to think of it, the people that I have known throughout the years that have a saltwater tank but aren't affiliated with reefcentral or local reef community are far from serious about their tank.
I had this one kid, the kid that actually got me into the hobby, tell me that his tank was purple the week before but for some reason it all went away the next week. I asked him where all of his fish went... he replied... "oh they all died". Apparently he had issues with his heater... or so he says.
I had this one kid, the kid that actually got me into the hobby, tell me that his tank was purple the week before but for some reason it all went away the next week. I asked him where all of his fish went... he replied... "oh they all died". Apparently he had issues with his heater... or so he says.
Jabberwock
New member
I guess the "right" answer in my mind would be "yes" ... IF it can be independently proven that the sheer number of hobbyists are causing irreversible damage to significant swaths of coral reefs.
I don't have data or perspective on how big the industry is in the U.S. or globally, but if you can buy LR, Dwarf Angels, Tube Worms, Urchins, and Cleaner Shrimp from big box stores now, I'd wager the entire scene across the world is "pretty damn big". How many people do you think are walking into those places, buying a 10 gallon tank with an incandescent hood, HOB sponge filter, heater, bag of sand, bag of salt, bottle of dechlorinator, an air pump (for that cool, animated pirateship decoration), and then add a clownfish, and juvi yellow & hippo tangs the same day? ( <---- Not necessarily rhetorical - if you have an idea, I'd seriously like to hear an answer!)
Posts/sites like this do not help things:
http://www.ehow.com/how_5796_set-saltwater-aquarium.html
since it makes it appear very, very easy to start a saltwater tank -- in this article it does not even mention a skimmer until after the step where the fish are placed in the tank (making it appear as an unnecessary accessory)... and no mention of LR anywhere... This is the 4th most popular link under the "how to set up a saltwater aquarium" search, BTW.... And BY FAR the easiest to read for anyone not in the hobby.
But also consider this: if over-popularity and the casual hobbyists brings is a problem, then the solution can be seen as an opportunity - and I think there are some who have seized it already. Companies like ORA are able to mass-produce some of the most popular livestock at a rate that hopefully keeps up with demand and allows it to price itself below wild-caught livestock. What inevitably happens to the majority of that purchased livestock is probably a sad tale in a lot of the cases, but at least it's not wild-caught live stock... and that might be all the difference when it comes to banning or greatly restricting the hobby.
... Then again, I am woefully ignorant about the whole industry (and ORA's impact on it), so I could be very off-base about a few points here.
I don't have data or perspective on how big the industry is in the U.S. or globally, but if you can buy LR, Dwarf Angels, Tube Worms, Urchins, and Cleaner Shrimp from big box stores now, I'd wager the entire scene across the world is "pretty damn big". How many people do you think are walking into those places, buying a 10 gallon tank with an incandescent hood, HOB sponge filter, heater, bag of sand, bag of salt, bottle of dechlorinator, an air pump (for that cool, animated pirateship decoration), and then add a clownfish, and juvi yellow & hippo tangs the same day? ( <---- Not necessarily rhetorical - if you have an idea, I'd seriously like to hear an answer!)
Posts/sites like this do not help things:
http://www.ehow.com/how_5796_set-saltwater-aquarium.html
since it makes it appear very, very easy to start a saltwater tank -- in this article it does not even mention a skimmer until after the step where the fish are placed in the tank (making it appear as an unnecessary accessory)... and no mention of LR anywhere... This is the 4th most popular link under the "how to set up a saltwater aquarium" search, BTW.... And BY FAR the easiest to read for anyone not in the hobby.
But also consider this: if over-popularity and the casual hobbyists brings is a problem, then the solution can be seen as an opportunity - and I think there are some who have seized it already. Companies like ORA are able to mass-produce some of the most popular livestock at a rate that hopefully keeps up with demand and allows it to price itself below wild-caught livestock. What inevitably happens to the majority of that purchased livestock is probably a sad tale in a lot of the cases, but at least it's not wild-caught live stock... and that might be all the difference when it comes to banning or greatly restricting the hobby.
... Then again, I am woefully ignorant about the whole industry (and ORA's impact on it), so I could be very off-base about a few points here.
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cloakerpoked
New member
I agree completely. The problem isn't that this hobby exists, but that it is being gone about irresponsibly. We are damaging the reefs, that is a fact. Is it overblown by some whistle-blowing entities out there, without a doubt. They have an agenda, and will push that agenda through whatever means are available to them. That does not, however, mean that the problems they are identifying are fictitious by any stretch of the imagination. The allegory of the people setting up 10 gallon tanks w/o live rock, skimmers, or any kind of filtration and expecting their ich-ridden tangs to survive is sadly common. The movie Finding Nemo made this even worse...much worse in fact. The bottom line is that, if done right, this hobby is prohibitively expensive to most people for them to undertake things in an irresponsible way, and probably extremely difficult to get done at all from items purchased exclusively from Petco or another big box store. Yet these people carry saltwater items, meaning that people patronize them. If you don't want big brother stepping in and policing you, you have to do it yourself, and this indicates a high degree of consumer responsibility as well as community education. We have to be willing to pay more for stuff that is collected responsibly, locally bred, or captively grown if necessary. As it pertains to corals, generally speaking it's even cheaper, which is a good thing. We, as a consumer, need to make our voices heard to all retailers, demanding that they acquire goods from responsible collectors, even if it means paying more for them. Hate to sound like a broken record, I just hate people who are responsible for the care of animals that exercise terrible stewardship. That's why I don't patronize aquaworld...their corals are the nicest in Pittsburgh, and the prices aren't always unreasonable, but the conditions I've seen the reptiles kept in are deplorable, and I'm not an expert on alligators, but I'm pretty sure they need more space than what they're being given. Is it inconvenient for me if I want a high-end coral and have to pay to have it shipped to me or wait until someone local frags it, absolutely, but I believe this is the price that I need to be willing to pay to stand up for my beliefs and principles.
Python73
New member
Just for the record, and I'm by no means sticking up for the article you linked (which I have yet to read) but you don't need a skimmer to have a saltwater tank. You also don't need live rock. Without them you will be forced to deviate your practices from what we've become used to, but in the end all of our current tricks of the trade are clever ways to keep water "healthy" longer. You can have a successful saltwater setup with these bare minimums:
saltwater (mixed or natural)
heat
light
circulation
That's it. No sand, no rock, no fancy filters. You'll need a hose and a bucket to do your constant water changes also. But there you go. I think good perspective about what you add to your system can be gained from the above. Because anything you buy a machine or chemical to do is performing one of those basics, or you probably shouldn't be doing it.
I'll chime in on the "we're killing the oceans" thing after I get a chance to read it.
Jabberwock
New member
Yeah. I can definitely get behind all of the above. I run a skimmer-less nano that relies on weekly water changes myself (it has some LR in there though)... but I guess my point is that (and I'm speculating when I say this - so if I'm off-base, please correct me) the majority of the types of brand new hobbyists (of whom I count myself amongst their numbers) who buy the bare minimum to get started with are probably not going to be the types who keep up with the needed maintenance water changes to keep a system running well. I'd liken it to the all-too-common story of people who buy exercise equipment to meet their new years resolution, but then after two months realize that they just bought an expensive coat rack... Many people with good intentions, but lots of stories of unfortunate consequences.
TomNeely
New member
I agree Sam. My 100 gallon frag tank is nothing fancy and it works.
100 gallon rubbermaid drilled
29 gallon sump with some macro and a cheap light above it and a Maxijet 1200 return.
2 heaters
and a 4 bulb 24" T5 light above rubbermaid (all 6500K)
Inside the 100 gallon I have a Maxijet 1200 with a SureFlow mod (2000 GPH)
Very cheap. It works for me and the corals are healthy. I do weekly water changes with Reef Crystals...
100 gallon rubbermaid drilled
29 gallon sump with some macro and a cheap light above it and a Maxijet 1200 return.
2 heaters
and a 4 bulb 24" T5 light above rubbermaid (all 6500K)
Inside the 100 gallon I have a Maxijet 1200 with a SureFlow mod (2000 GPH)
Very cheap. It works for me and the corals are healthy. I do weekly water changes with Reef Crystals...
