Anyone know how to breed mandarins?
- Thread starter MelloW33
- Start date
coralninja
New member
I'm currently trying to rear some mandarin larvae at the moment, as well!
Basically, the adult mandarins will get into a breeding schedule spawning nightly, typically right before or after the aquarium lights go off. You'll need to make sure the pump is turned off as they will release pelagic eggs during the spawning ascent that are positively buoyant. The first couple spawnings we poorly fertilised as the male seems to need some time to practice his accuracy.
You can collect the eggs in jar from the surface of the aquarium. Previously I've simply left the eggs in the jar which hatched within about 24hrs. (make sure the water temperature in the jar is maintained). No airation appears to be necessary at this point. I've had better hatching success in the absence of an airstone. However, after hatching I transferred the larvae to a 5 gallon black bucket in a water bath to stabilise water temperature. I also added aeration at this point.
In terms of feeding, after they hatch they don't seem to develop a functional gut till day 3-4ish (depending on water temperature) so no feeding is necessary till this point as they'll survive on their egg yolk. Then once they start feeding... its all bad news.
It seems they require wild zooplankton (copepods primarily) as I have had no success with rotifers enriched on Nannochloropsis sp. After day 6 I consistently have about 100% mortality.
Very curious if anyone has had success with the mandarins using anything other than copepods or wild zooplankton.
Best of luck!
Basically, the adult mandarins will get into a breeding schedule spawning nightly, typically right before or after the aquarium lights go off. You'll need to make sure the pump is turned off as they will release pelagic eggs during the spawning ascent that are positively buoyant. The first couple spawnings we poorly fertilised as the male seems to need some time to practice his accuracy.
You can collect the eggs in jar from the surface of the aquarium. Previously I've simply left the eggs in the jar which hatched within about 24hrs. (make sure the water temperature in the jar is maintained). No airation appears to be necessary at this point. I've had better hatching success in the absence of an airstone. However, after hatching I transferred the larvae to a 5 gallon black bucket in a water bath to stabilise water temperature. I also added aeration at this point.
In terms of feeding, after they hatch they don't seem to develop a functional gut till day 3-4ish (depending on water temperature) so no feeding is necessary till this point as they'll survive on their egg yolk. Then once they start feeding... its all bad news.
It seems they require wild zooplankton (copepods primarily) as I have had no success with rotifers enriched on Nannochloropsis sp. After day 6 I consistently have about 100% mortality.
Very curious if anyone has had success with the mandarins using anything other than copepods or wild zooplankton.
Best of luck!
NikoLover
New member
I am curious about how your Mandarins paired. I currently have a male and I added a female that is significantly smaller than the male. How did you get your Mandarins to pair if anything? What behavior did the male or female exhibit when you added both to the tank? What was the order of adding them to the tank? What mating behavior did they have when pairing?
I have read a lot about how the male will display his colors and fan his fins and dorsal to display himself to the female. Is this accurate from your observations? I am interested in starting to breed these guys also (like everyone and their mother :bounce3
I am starting to grow phytoplankton soon and then culturing copepods.Everytime I see a thread about how mandarins mate the members always rip the person a new one by telling them to wait to add mandarins and that they wouldn't be sustained, so no REAL information is given. In my case my tank has been up for a year and a half and I have a 5gallon fuge that is doing pretty good for copepods (I think). I also quarantined both my mandarins and weaned them onto frozen foods. And once they were nice and fat and knew they were eating frozen foods and live brine well I set them free into my display tank. So they are well fed and will continue to be. I also pretty much flood my tank with Live brine weekly with all pumps off and they get A LOT of brine during that time.
Right now my male just follows the female around occasionally charging her and then backs off. This is day two of her being in the tank, so I am eager to hear about what to expect to see if pairing works. Any input would be great since you have a mated pair.
Also in response to this thread, I have read quite a few articles on first foods for mandarin fry. One was in a magazine. the others were all online, the university of florida has quite a few articles regarding breeding programs on them. If I can find the links to those articles I will post them up here. Thanks!
feeding and developing pairs
feeding and developing pairs
Niko you are right on about how you prepared your mandarins, some people jump to conclusions too fast when reading others posts, and look like an ***, wild mandarins do better in tanks with lots of pods, but also learn to eat what we offer, I got mine on frozen artemia by offering it with live artemia. Lots of variations. For sure they arnt fish for new tanks, but not hard to acclimate in an older tank.
I am researching species of pods too looking for the smaller ones, they are available, it may come to just raising a shotgun bunch of pods and leaving it to the larvae to hunt as they can, the other approach would be to 'net' out the largest pods and feed them to other tanks and feed the remainder of the smaller pods. Myself I am looking for the small ones and will post here what I can find.
It sounds like your male has started the get acquainted process, it is a process. Just make sure she has shelter. I use little dome shaped caves I made of cement, arragonite and oyster shell, great for little fish.
feeding and developing pairs
Niko you are right on about how you prepared your mandarins, some people jump to conclusions too fast when reading others posts, and look like an ***, wild mandarins do better in tanks with lots of pods, but also learn to eat what we offer, I got mine on frozen artemia by offering it with live artemia. Lots of variations. For sure they arnt fish for new tanks, but not hard to acclimate in an older tank.
I am researching species of pods too looking for the smaller ones, they are available, it may come to just raising a shotgun bunch of pods and leaving it to the larvae to hunt as they can, the other approach would be to 'net' out the largest pods and feed them to other tanks and feed the remainder of the smaller pods. Myself I am looking for the small ones and will post here what I can find.
It sounds like your male has started the get acquainted process, it is a process. Just make sure she has shelter. I use little dome shaped caves I made of cement, arragonite and oyster shell, great for little fish.
NikoLover
New member
It makes it hard to get information off the forum when people jump to conclusions. I was thinking the same thing about the 'shotgun pod' approach. But I will hopefully get there someday. I would really like to breed these fish. They are the most aesthetically appealing fish to me. I have other favorites as well, but I have heard of relative success with breeding Mandarins.
Okay so the male just kind of follows her around and pesters her a bit (almost seeming to say "hey look at me, we can make babies together you and I...") to initiate the pairing and mating rituals within the species? What else should I expect when observing their behavior if they do make a pair? Thanks Jake. Appreciate it.
coralninja
New member
In regards to the pairing process and courtship rituals for the Mandarins...
I initially acquired 3 Mandarins as I identified a definite male but was unsure whether the other two were definitely female or potentially juvenile males. These three were introduced into a 30gal breeding tank with just a flowerpot hide and a thicket of Caulerpa taxifolia with lush pod growth.
Within a week it became evident that there were two males in the aquaria. Their interaction was characterised by the dominate male chasing, displaying, and nipping the fins of the subordinate male. At times the dominate male would "pin down" the subordinate against the side of the aquarium by biting over his mouth and whipping him around like a rag doll (similar to dominance displays in some FW fish). This resulted in the subordinate male being forced towards the waters surface and away from the optimal feeding grounds. Most of the aggression appeared to be concentrated to the mornings and evenings.
However, the female was completely ignored whilst the two males battled it out. Once the subordinate male was removed the male/female pair co-existed peacefully. After about 2 months of inactivity (patience is key in fish breeding!!!) the male began to display around the female whenever she would enter the water column in the evenings. Additionally, the male would follow around the female at this stage as you described "pestering her". During the day the two largely ignored each other and sometimes I found myself wondering if they really were a pair!
Thus, if you're not observing anything described for the male "“ male interaction I'd say it's a positive sign! It seems tolerance alone will indicate a pair in a smaller aquarium.
I should point out that conditioning of the pair seems to be key to initiate any spawning/courtship. Foraging always took preference to displaying and only when the pair were noticeably plump did they bother to engage in these extra-curricular activities.
Hope this helps!
I initially acquired 3 Mandarins as I identified a definite male but was unsure whether the other two were definitely female or potentially juvenile males. These three were introduced into a 30gal breeding tank with just a flowerpot hide and a thicket of Caulerpa taxifolia with lush pod growth.
Within a week it became evident that there were two males in the aquaria. Their interaction was characterised by the dominate male chasing, displaying, and nipping the fins of the subordinate male. At times the dominate male would "pin down" the subordinate against the side of the aquarium by biting over his mouth and whipping him around like a rag doll (similar to dominance displays in some FW fish). This resulted in the subordinate male being forced towards the waters surface and away from the optimal feeding grounds. Most of the aggression appeared to be concentrated to the mornings and evenings.
However, the female was completely ignored whilst the two males battled it out. Once the subordinate male was removed the male/female pair co-existed peacefully. After about 2 months of inactivity (patience is key in fish breeding!!!) the male began to display around the female whenever she would enter the water column in the evenings. Additionally, the male would follow around the female at this stage as you described "pestering her". During the day the two largely ignored each other and sometimes I found myself wondering if they really were a pair!
Thus, if you're not observing anything described for the male "“ male interaction I'd say it's a positive sign! It seems tolerance alone will indicate a pair in a smaller aquarium.
I should point out that conditioning of the pair seems to be key to initiate any spawning/courtship. Foraging always took preference to displaying and only when the pair were noticeably plump did they bother to engage in these extra-curricular activities.
Hope this helps!
feed for Mandarin larvae
feed for Mandarin larvae
Luis doesnt really like the Harp. Copepods for first foods, but I would start a culture of then along with the Colenoid copepods and be feeding both the parents tank with them plus the larval tank when they start feeding, the idea being to get some pods in front of all the larvae.Some phytoplankton wouldnt be a bad idea either, if nothing else it can feed the tank. I'd be seining a sumps detritus for any and all pods, rinse them and offer them. I do intend to be trying these very soon, got a move coming up and then its going to be a rash of system building.
Brood stock tanks, fish and softies and nems, a big frag tank, and hoping for a good year getting it all established. Mandarins are on my list, along with cleaner gobies, jawfish and firefish and dottybacks. And my clowns.
Should keep me out of bars, wont have the money to go into any. :beer:
feed for Mandarin larvae
Luis doesnt really like the Harp. Copepods for first foods, but I would start a culture of then along with the Colenoid copepods and be feeding both the parents tank with them plus the larval tank when they start feeding, the idea being to get some pods in front of all the larvae.Some phytoplankton wouldnt be a bad idea either, if nothing else it can feed the tank. I'd be seining a sumps detritus for any and all pods, rinse them and offer them. I do intend to be trying these very soon, got a move coming up and then its going to be a rash of system building.
Brood stock tanks, fish and softies and nems, a big frag tank, and hoping for a good year getting it all established. Mandarins are on my list, along with cleaner gobies, jawfish and firefish and dottybacks. And my clowns.
Should keep me out of bars, wont have the money to go into any. :beer:
NikoLover
New member
Thanks. That's some really helpful information.
What do you mean by this? That the conditions for feeding and in the tank play a role in their spawning/courtship? Would the presence of certain fish make a large difference in their initiation of courtship/spawning due to competitiveness over resources or simply due to fear of a more aggressive/larger fish?
coralninja
New member
Conditioning of Broodstock
Conditioning of Broodstock
Ah...my apologies for not clarifying!
By conditioning of the adult mandarins or broodstock I was suggesting exactly what NikoLover interpreted it to mean. That "the conditions for feeding and in the tank play a role in their spawning/courtship" with a transition to stress-free conditions being the "conditioning".
Specifically, adequate nutrition appears to be of paramount importance. Within the first month of introducing the mandarins the algal bed was quite small and the mandarins seemed to have trouble obtaining sufficient food. This lack of surplus nutrition is partly why I suspect I didn't observe any courtship behaviours for the 2-3month period. During this period I seined out whatever pods I could from the sump once a week (as suggested by Jake Levi here) and tossed them all in the Mandarin tank. It was only once the mandarins were plump, an indication of adequate nutrition in my eyes, did the courtship behaviours take place.
Additionally, the presence of the 2nd male was definitely a MAJOR stressor in the tank. No courtship or any pairing behaviours took place whilst the 2nd male was present. The competition between the two males for the optimal feeding grounds likely affected the pair in two ways 1) a distraction from attaining food and 2) wasting limited energy. Thus, at the end of the day the dominate male was likely too tired or too distracted to bother in courtship with the female during this period.
In regards to fear of other fishes prohibiting spawning/courtship, the only other tankmates with two the mandarins were a pair of flame angels which were introduced to the tank shortly after removing the 2nd male. Their presence seemed to have minimal to no impact on the feeding or courtship of the mandarins. However, the angels were removed after about 3 weeks so I'm not sure if the mandarins would have gone ahead to spawn in their presence. And again I am unsure what impact the presence of larger fish would have as the flame angels were similar in size to the mandarins.
Also, with feeding the larvae I should mention as pelagic larvae the benthic copepods favoured by the adults would be largely unobtainable by Mandarin larvae developing in the wild. However, it would be great if the larvae would accept this food source in captivity!
Conditioning of Broodstock
Ah...my apologies for not clarifying!
By conditioning of the adult mandarins or broodstock I was suggesting exactly what NikoLover interpreted it to mean. That "the conditions for feeding and in the tank play a role in their spawning/courtship" with a transition to stress-free conditions being the "conditioning".
Specifically, adequate nutrition appears to be of paramount importance. Within the first month of introducing the mandarins the algal bed was quite small and the mandarins seemed to have trouble obtaining sufficient food. This lack of surplus nutrition is partly why I suspect I didn't observe any courtship behaviours for the 2-3month period. During this period I seined out whatever pods I could from the sump once a week (as suggested by Jake Levi here) and tossed them all in the Mandarin tank. It was only once the mandarins were plump, an indication of adequate nutrition in my eyes, did the courtship behaviours take place.
Additionally, the presence of the 2nd male was definitely a MAJOR stressor in the tank. No courtship or any pairing behaviours took place whilst the 2nd male was present. The competition between the two males for the optimal feeding grounds likely affected the pair in two ways 1) a distraction from attaining food and 2) wasting limited energy. Thus, at the end of the day the dominate male was likely too tired or too distracted to bother in courtship with the female during this period.
In regards to fear of other fishes prohibiting spawning/courtship, the only other tankmates with two the mandarins were a pair of flame angels which were introduced to the tank shortly after removing the 2nd male. Their presence seemed to have minimal to no impact on the feeding or courtship of the mandarins. However, the angels were removed after about 3 weeks so I'm not sure if the mandarins would have gone ahead to spawn in their presence. And again I am unsure what impact the presence of larger fish would have as the flame angels were similar in size to the mandarins.
Also, with feeding the larvae I should mention as pelagic larvae the benthic copepods favoured by the adults would be largely unobtainable by Mandarin larvae developing in the wild. However, it would be great if the larvae would accept this food source in captivity!
copepods
copepods
The mandarin larvae being pelagic is why I suggest starting a Harp. copepod culture also, as they are pelagic and the calinoid pods are benthic. Thats why I suggested a 'shotgun approach ' on the feeding. A major factor will be what size container that the larvae are reared in, if you can keep the water quality up then larger feedings of the benthic pods mught work, I have never used a Kriesel but am definitley going to study them, and get a couple to study more. Its a great innovation that came up while I was away.
copepods
The mandarin larvae being pelagic is why I suggest starting a Harp. copepod culture also, as they are pelagic and the calinoid pods are benthic. Thats why I suggested a 'shotgun approach ' on the feeding. A major factor will be what size container that the larvae are reared in, if you can keep the water quality up then larger feedings of the benthic pods mught work, I have never used a Kriesel but am definitley going to study them, and get a couple to study more. Its a great innovation that came up while I was away.
NikoLover
New member
I found a link to a DIY Kreisel. This one is used for baby Seahorses, but it could have some uses for Mandarin fry. I think this could be helpful since most copepods found in the saltwater hobby are Harpacticoid copepods which are able to sit on glass and rocks and not get blown around with all the powerheads. I think that the shotgun approach is a good way to go. I am still not entirely sure from what I have read that Mandarinfish first food is copepods though. Here is the link to the DIY Kreisel:
http://www.ventralfins.com/diy_kreisel.html
I am very interested in the kreisel tank being used to rear mandarinfish fry. Let me know if you give it a shot. I would love more info. If my fish form a pair (they follow each other around frequently now, fingers crossed), I will absolutely be trying to raise the fry.
Thanks for the info. Very helpful in my endeavors. If you have any information regarding collecting the eggs that would be super helpful.
On another note, my green chromis are spawning as I write this.
Not sure how to raise those so I am not going to be collecting anything to raise, but pretty cool!!!I also started a copepod culture tonight. All I did was take a glass jar that had peaches in them, (ate the peaches first, delicious!) then put some Cheato in the jar with some crushed up fish food. I put it in my refugium for about 4hrs. Then I pulled out the jar rinsed off the cheato with some fresh saltwater and then quantified my bounty. I got about 20pods. I counted by going into my bathroom turning out the lights and using a flashlight to attract them. They are all different sizes. Got some amphipods too. I am going to use this as my starting point for a copepod culture. I don't have an air pump, but if I do frequent water changes it should be okay with out the air. I will using a turkey baster to blast some air into the jar to get things moving around. Let me know if anyone else has any pointers. If it works I will move into a 5gal bucket and use an air stone to really get going.
Kreidel
Kreidel
Thanks for the link, excellent and I can see making it easy ! He is right, I believe I would use a 20L, for a number of reasons, one being can keep the water much cleaner, maybe even put some cheato in somewhere besides some pod culture in it.
I did find on the marketing section a guy making Kreidels, for ~ $50, worth getting one to see more on these.
I am also interested in the Centropyges so this is a must. I am also looking at egg snatchers , they all work together.
This will have to simplify hatching and rearing pelagic fry ! Also really need to get a wide range of cultures going, pelagic as well as bentic pods, and phyto.
Kreidel
Thanks for the link, excellent and I can see making it easy ! He is right, I believe I would use a 20L, for a number of reasons, one being can keep the water much cleaner, maybe even put some cheato in somewhere besides some pod culture in it.
I did find on the marketing section a guy making Kreidels, for ~ $50, worth getting one to see more on these.
I am also interested in the Centropyges so this is a must. I am also looking at egg snatchers , they all work together.
This will have to simplify hatching and rearing pelagic fry ! Also really need to get a wide range of cultures going, pelagic as well as bentic pods, and phyto.
pod culture containers
pod culture containers
For rearing pods I like the one gallon pickle jars, easy to get and hold a good amount, a very light air stone just bringing a bubble up slowly will keep a surface scum from forming and move the water a bit, then feed with a bit of phyto and crushed flake food. I want to get all the culturing on an 8' bench top, a rack against the wall holding five inverted five gallon water jugs with bottoms removed to culture artemia and phyto and rots, DONT let them contaminate the phyto. I like this configuration, gives a lot of good sized artemia to feed the tanks, easy to gut load them. I can see putting the 20L Kreidel here also.
pod culture containers
For rearing pods I like the one gallon pickle jars, easy to get and hold a good amount, a very light air stone just bringing a bubble up slowly will keep a surface scum from forming and move the water a bit, then feed with a bit of phyto and crushed flake food. I want to get all the culturing on an 8' bench top, a rack against the wall holding five inverted five gallon water jugs with bottoms removed to culture artemia and phyto and rots, DONT let them contaminate the phyto. I like this configuration, gives a lot of good sized artemia to feed the tanks, easy to gut load them. I can see putting the 20L Kreidel here also.
NikoLover
New member
A great site to check out that has a lot of threads on only breading is MOFIB. Marine Ornamental Fish and Invert Breeders Association. I don't want to post the link because I don't want to get in trouble in case referencing other forums is not allowed :/ But look it up online. They have a whole bunch of threads on different fish and different success rates.
The mandarin no matter where I look is still one of the most difficult fish to tank raise. So there's that. lol
Great News! My Mandarin fish are starting to sleep together and pretty much stay together all the time now. I think this is a very good sign. I am hoping to get some rotifer cultures going. Does anybody know a great source out of california for wild plankton?
The mandarin no matter where I look is still one of the most difficult fish to tank raise. So there's that. lol
Great News! My Mandarin fish are starting to sleep together and pretty much stay together all the time now. I think this is a very good sign. I am hoping to get some rotifer cultures going. Does anybody know a great source out of california for wild plankton?
Luis A M
Premium Member
Well,no.Calanoids and cyclopoids are pelagic.Harpacticoids are benthic.:reading:
Luis A M
Premium Member
Quoting from my copepod threads in the Site mentioned above (so I don´t have to link)
Fish larvae feed on pelagic nauplii.Post larval mandarins feed on benthic prey.Their mouths are made to capture little critters crawling on the substrate.They have some trouble seizing pelagic prey,like bs,but they learn after a while.
I culture zooplankton in plastic 1 gal jars,with some gentle bubbling.Go to aforementioned threads for details.
