Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[kenpau]

I do find it strange that LED users will readily admit that MH/T5 lighting works, however the stubbornness of the majority of MH users is shown in their total reluctance to say there is any merit at all in LED lighting....just scanning through the last few pages I've seen a lot of hating on LEDs...

They break down

The colours aren't as good

My coral bleached

I couldn't get the results I was expecting

I got poor growth

Etc etc

I'm just wondering if all this is the case then how come LED lighting works?? And it does work, we all know it works and it works well. There just seems to be a real reluctance from some people to admit that. Possibly due to frustration that they couldn't get them to work 'it must be LEDs that don't work, it can't be user error on my part'....Possibly because they are expensive and people don't want to pay for them when they have perfectly fine MH lighting....or maybe because they're scared that in the near future LEDs will be recognised as the better lighting option, technology is improving all the time.

If only one person in the world ran an LED tank with beautiful corals, grown from frags, with amazing colours then it is proof that LEDs work....there's a hell of a lot more people than that having massive success with LEDs.

 

[FullBoreReefer]

I'm having success with my hydras , all from frags, unfortunately no before and after pics. But, with all the adjustability its a shot in the dark, or atleast what my eye thinks is right.

I've followed the hydra setting thread from day one, even mentioned my setting multiple times, its always whatever works. But no definitive try this for 14k or 20k etc.

Trust me I still run my hydras just wishing to get more in depth answers...

 

[JB NY]

I do find it strange that LED users will readily admit that MH/T5 lighting works, however the stubbornness of the majority of MH users is shown in their total reluctance to say there is any merit at all in LED lighting

They work great in lots of situations, fish only, Soft corals, Zoanthids, and LPS seem to do really good and look great under them.

 

[kenpau]

There's a lot more than LPS and a couple of softies in here!!

 

[kevin_e]

This has been brought up earlier in this discussion, but reefs are only a very small part of the halide market. As LED's are used in other applications, ie streetlights, we will find that halides are becoming harder to find. Many cities across the nation are switching to LED for the majority of their lighting needs, reducing the demand for Halide lighting.

We already see the impact on the reef hobby, anyone know where they can find a Phoenix 20k? Some of the more popular halide bulbs have already been discontinued and we will certainly see that trend continue. The day will come when MH is simply no longer an option. Maybe it will take 10 years to happen, but the day will come. Whether you are ready to accept LED as your lighting source or not, you will have to find something new eventually. Hopefully LED's have advanced enough by then to meet the needs of discerning SPS keepers.

A) There was never a Phoenix 20K. The Phoenix 14K is going back into production momentarily (After, get this, a big backlash from users).

B) The companies that produce halide lighting for aquaria and horticulture are specialized for that market. Hamilton, Coral Vue, Reef Bright etc. don't rely upon lighting the street or parking lots of the world, so DOT and businesses switching away from halide are completely irrelevant to my point.

As I stated, it's a niche lighting to begin with, so a strong market has never been there.

C) I have nothing against LED, I have tried them numerous times, so you attempting to make my stance purely "against change" is off base. I don't have to "accept" anything, the market is dictated by demand. When the demand of halide is no longer there, it means a BETTER lighting source is now available. If and when that day comes, I will freely buy said lighting. Right now, nothing indicates that halide will go by the wayside because of LED and if/when it does, it just means that a better (notice I said better) source of light became available. Right now, combo lighting is becoming the new trend. This indicates that LED is not the wave of the future, but just another option in the vast list of lighting choices.

T-8 and Power compact didn't go by the wayside because halides and t5 were more technologically advanced or offered more options and gadgets, they went by the way side because they were BETTER lights; that's not the case with LEDs (yet).

To add, regarding LEDs, I've maintained for quite sometime that the design is flawed. My belief is that the numerous point source lighting style found on most units do not provide optimal lighting. Lighting styles such as the Kessil allow for the blending of different spectrums to replicate that of a halide. Utilizing that style and inverting (pointing away from the tank) them to reflect from a parabolic reflector would be much more useful and prevent the spot lighting and shadowing issues often complained about.

 

[FullBoreReefer]

Was that tank started on your 52's? Cause it looks great, but they haven't been out to to long...just curious

 

[kevin_e]

They break down

The colours aren't as good

My coral bleached

I couldn't get the results I was expecting

I got poor growth

Etc etc

QUOTE]

You answered your own question. LED lighting does work, if you know what your are doing. The problem is, no one knows what they are doing because very few people understand their lighting and/or have proper guidance from the company making those lighting fixtures. Coral lighting requirements are not well understood and that is where the issue arises. The lighting isn't the issue, it is the operator.

How many contradictory statements have you seen regarding usage? You need more diodes, you need less diodes; you need to hang them higher, you need to change them lower; you need to add more spectrum, you need more blue; you need to dim them, you need to turn them up; you need optics, you don't need optics.

How the heck can anyone expect to find success with such vary answers?

 

[kenpau]

Was that tank started on your 52's? Cause it looks great, but they haven't been out to to long...just curious

I believe it was started with either AI Sols or AI Vegas and upgraded to Hydra52s. It's not my tank unfortunately! It's Reefbloke's.

 

[JB NY]

There's a lot more than LPS and a couple of softies in here!!

Right! that one is super nice, wish there where more of em.

 

[kevin_e]

Regarding LEDs, I've maintained for quite sometime that the design is flawed. My belief is that the numerous point source lighting style found on most units do not provide optimal lighting. Lighting styles such as the Kessil allow for the blending of different spectrums to replicate that of a halide. Utilizing that style and inverting (pointing away from the tank) them to reflect from a parabolic reflector would be much more useful and prevent the spot lighting and shadowing issues often complained about. In turn, corals will be utilizing the several different spectrums as opposed to getting lit by specific wave lengths in different locations of their structure.

Think of an LED cluster that is structured like a halide bulb with numerous chips of vary wave lengths in one tight location underneath a parabolic reflector.

Something along these lines:

 

[Coelli]

Regarding LEDs, I've maintained for quite sometime that the design is flawed. My belief is that the numerous point source lighting style found on most units do not provide optimal lighting. Lighting styles such as the Kessil allow for the blending of different spectrums to replicate that of a halide. Utilizing that style and inverting (pointing away from the tank) them to reflect from a parabolic reflector would be much more useful and prevent the spot lighting and shadowing issues often complained about. In turn, corals will be utilizing the several different spectrums as opposed to getting lit by specific wave lengths in different locations of their structure.

That's an interesting idea; the shadowing is definitely an issue. FWIW I started with an older LED retrofit that was all blue and whites. A friend of mine gave me a bunch of frags; some grew, some didn't. I moved everything to a new tank with Kessils in December and the change happened pretty quickly. The brown staghorn with a little turquoise colored up and started encrusting a really beautiful bright turquoise. The dull brown plating acro has suddenly started encrusting bright green. The browned-out Joe the Coral I bought from the cheap seats at my LFS has already colored up in just a couple of weeks. The SSC I got at Vivid has finally started to get the nice green base.

I'm sold on the Kessils, at least. AquaticLife just came out with their version recently too. Like a lot of technology it will just take time.

(FWIW I have a very long photoperiod with a peak for a few hours in the middle - it would be shorter overall but I work long hours and want to be able to see the tank in the AM and PM.)

 

[kevin_e]

That's an interesting idea; the shadowing is definitely an issue. FWIW I started with an older LED retrofit that was all blue and whites. A friend of mine gave me a bunch of frags; some grew, some didn't. I moved everything to a new tank with Kessils in December and the change happened pretty quickly. The brown staghorn with a little turquoise colored up and started encrusting a really beautiful bright turquoise. The dull brown plating acro has suddenly started encrusting bright green. The browned-out Joe the Coral I bought from the cheap seats at my LFS has already colored up in just a couple of weeks. The SSC I got at Vivid has finally started to get the nice green base.

I'm sold on the Kessils, at least. AquaticLife just came out with their version recently too. Like a lot of technology it will just take time.

(FWIW I have a very long photoperiod with a peak for a few hours in the middle - it would be shorter overall but I work long hours and want to be able to see the tank in the AM and PM.)

Added some crude sketches

 

[kevin_e]

Metal halide style LED:

http://www.ledglobalsupply.com/led-...ed-retrofit/?gclid=CJf-gtCm4sUCFVgYHwodXDgAgA

 

[Wazzel]

Right! that one is super nice, wish there where more of em.

There are, and more come along all the time.

 

[Reel North]

I'm starting a new build shortly. My tank will be here next week. I went with 3 lumenmax large and 250w radiums on m80 ballasts. I'm using a reefbrite strip for viewing when lights are off. I used 3 radion G2 on my last tank (72" 150g) and to say it was ineffective on sps is an understatement. My lps did ok, but only had heads grow when I switched to MH.

Led has a long way to go to catch up to match the coverage vs dollars of MH or T5. I'm sure if I put 10 radions on my new build (72x30w x24 t) I could get some decent results. It's the 8000 dollars I don't feel like spending. And 10x145 watts isn't a savings on electricity.

 

[kenpau]

I'm starting a new build shortly. My tank will be here next week. I went with 3 lumenmax large and 250w radiums on m80 ballasts. I'm using a reefbrite strip for viewing when lights are off. I used 3 radion G2 on my last tank (72" 150g) and to say it was ineffective on sps is an understatement. My lps did ok, but only had heads grow when I switched to MH.

Led has a long way to go to catch up to match the coverage vs dollars of MH or T5. I'm sure if I put 10 radions on my new build (72x30w x24 t) I could get some decent results. It's the 8000 dollars I don't feel like spending. And 10x145 watts isn't a savings on electricity.

You're absolutely right in saying that you do need more LED fixtures than MH to achieve the same total coverage. It is EXPENSIVE to cover a larger tank with LEDs, I think this half the reason people constantly put them down. I personally went with 3 hydra52s on my 150 but need to add a fourth because my PAR was dropping closer to the glass. Thats a AUD$2800 outlay on a lighting system I could have replicated with MH for probably AUD$500. Did I make the right decision, absolutely. LEDs allow me to enjoy calm periods in my reef at sunrise, sunset, cloud cover on a stormy afternoon linked with my MP40s....a lot of this is nice to have, not need to have, it doesn't do anything beneficial for my corals but it's for my enjoyment and adds to the whole reef keeping experience. If you are operating on a budget on a larger tank then I'd definitely say go with MH and chances are you'll have a great tank....if you have the money and aren't one of those people that dumps things because you don't have the patience to work at them then LEDs will DEFINITELY work and enhance your reef keeping experience.

 

[Fredfish]

3 Radion pro gen 2s over a 60 x 25 x 25 150 gallon tank.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23568989&postcount=79

Not enough light coverage? Not the most colour you can wring out of a coral? Maybe, but the tank looks pretty darn good to me.

Its not about the technology you use, its about how you use it.

 

[Reel North]

Kenyan, I'm not an led hater at all. And I COULD light my tank with LED but I'm not going to. I see far too many failures still, and I really don't think the units are worth the money. I've got a reefbrite for sun rise/sunset/ viewing with halides off.

The lighting choices are infinite, but for my busy life, and for my enjoyment, I'll avoid led for the foreseeable future and enjoy my radiums

 

[kenpau]

Kenyan, I'm not an led hater at all. And I COULD light my tank with LED but I'm not going to. I see far too many failures still, and I really don't think the units are worth the money. I've got a reefbrite for sun rise/sunset/ viewing with halides off.

The lighting choices are infinite, but for my busy life, and for my enjoyment, I'll avoid led for the foreseeable future and enjoy my radiums

You're right again, there are a LOT of failures.....the question on everyones lips is why are so many people failing with LEDs?

 

[Steve Atkins]

Regarding LEDs, I've maintained for quite sometime that the design is flawed. My belief is that the numerous point source lighting style found on most units do not provide optimal lighting. Lighting styles such as the Kessil allow for the blending of different spectrums to replicate that of a halide. Utilizing that style and inverting (pointing away from the tank) them to reflect from a parabolic reflector would be much more useful and prevent the spot lighting and shadowing issues often complained about. In turn, corals will be utilizing the several different spectrums as opposed to getting lit by specific wave lengths in different locations of their structure.

Think of an LED cluster that is structured like a halide bulb with numerous chips of vary wave lengths in one tight location underneath a parabolic reflector.

Something along these lines:

I like that idea. One of the attractions of LEDS is their relatively low profile, so maybe a side firing LED array aimed at a multi-faceted reflector would preserve that low profile and give the light distribution benefits of a reflector.


I've run metal halides for about 20 years with success (coral health and growth with colour coming in last) so my recent switch to LED was not without some degree of trepidation. In the end I added 40% more fittings (Aquaray Aquabeam 1500 and 2000 tiles) than the manufacture recommended so I could run them spread out and at lower power and try to avoid the shadowing and beaming issues I had read about. So far so good but I have kept the MH gear, just in case.