Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[oreo57]

LED's have been hanging over aquariums for 10 years, how long is it going to take?

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/admat_en/kap_5/backbone/r5_3_1.html

Point is even though its "geometry" improved photon delivery (both a blessing and curse due to directionality), gross photon output was still lower than conv. sources. Don't blame LED's for how it was implemented 10 years ago..

 

[sirreal63]

You know LED's have been around since 1962? That chart is a bit misleading. I do not blame LED's, I am deeply in favor of them but that doesn't change the relevancy of this thread or the people who have discovered they wasted their money.

It doesn't matter how many charts, graphs and google searches you do, the whole point of this thread is still that traditional light sources still do a better and easier job of keeping corals happy. It is my sincere hope that in time that will change, but today it has not. Will it in another 5 years? Five years ago it was thought it would be worked out by now.

It is ok for you to disagree with the numerous people who ditched their "not ready for prime time" LED's but other than graphs and google searches you have nothing to change anyone's mind.

 

[Wazzel]

LED's have been hanging over aquariums for 10 years, how long is it going to take?

I think tech wise they are there now and have been for a while. Operation parameters is a matter of debate. I am over two years in and still doing fine. Yes I have more units that the manufacturer recommends, but we all know that is an issue.

 

[Wazzel]

You know LED's have been around since 1962? That chart is a bit misleading. I do not blame LED's, I am deeply in favor of them but that doesn't change the relevancy of this thread or the people who have discovered they wasted their money.

It doesn't matter how many charts, graphs and google searches you do, the whole point of this thread is still that traditional light sources still do a better and easier job of keeping corals happy. It is my sincere hope that in time that will change, but today it has not. Will it in another 5 years? Five years ago it was thought it would be worked out by now.

It is ok for you to disagree with the numerous people who ditched their "not ready for prime time" LED's but other than graphs and google searches you have nothing to change anyone's mind.

I disagree. LEDs are more than ready for primetime. Not sure why the notion that LEDs are not up to the job persist. LED tanks do look different that MH or T5 tank, but that does not mean bad. All the colors we get from corals in our tanks are artificially stimulated by manipulating the light anyway.

 

[shred5]

LED's have been hanging over aquariums for 10 years, how long is it going to take?

I think it is starting too right now. If you read my past posts I have pretty much been saying all other types of lighting are better than led. I have never said leds cannot grow corals but colors on some shallow water sps are not as good due to limited spectrum especially UV. Self shading was a issue and really still is. I have said halides are the best overall for sps color and I prefer t-5 because energy saving and coverage.

Any how I have seen some pretty impressive sps tanks that are leds now.
I believe it is because of two things:

1.) One is UV is now being added to the spectrum. Kessil even has a small peak around 380 nm.. Could dip much lower yet! cost is a issue her yet.

2.) People are adding allot more leds which helps with self shading.
Like what is being said above that removes some of the advantages of leds. One, now they do not save you the electricity like they are supposed too and a watt of heat is a watt of heat so you no longer can look at them running cooler. But most people do not run leds at 100 percent. I think they could start running more leds but at lower watts. So technically I think a tank lit with leds still could save a little energy vs other technologies but not by allot.

I still think halides and leds provide the best light for sps but with LEDS dipping even more into the UV department it will get better.

At this point there are going to be so many leds fixtures the prices have to come down and will come down hard. That was another disadvantage of leds was cost of a fixture, even if they saved you money on energy you could never make up the cost of the fixture.


Controllability of leds is a big advantage.
Not changing lamps is a big advantage.
Being able to make nice sleek fixtures is a advantage.

My point is going forward I think the gap closes. I do not think anything will ever beat halides for color in sps corals ever but as the gap closes there the other advantages to leds that outweigh the disadvantages. It happened with t-5 lighting, one big disadvantage of t-5 was bulb changes and even though they produce close to as good of colors as halides they are now consider pretty good.

I think halides will be niche and be around for ever for those who want the best of the best and do not care about cost will use them but I think at this point the little loss in color the other advantages of leds might start cutting into the t-5 market and some halide.

 

[shred5]

You know LED's have been around since 1962?

I work in the lighting industry and we were discussing this yesterday and one guy mentioned this yesterday, he was defending led lighting.. The fact is led might have been around but not for lighting applications which is totally different...

L.e.d.'s were always developed before for their visibility not to light up an area which is completely different application. This has actually caused some of the problems in development of the led and leads to some of the disadvantages. As a matter of fact it was visibility without lighting up an area, Who wants a led alarm clock that light up a room? How annoying would that be. Or leds on a vcr or dvd player that puts out so much light it effects your vision of a tv. So basically lets see how visible we can be without putting out light and now we are focused on how much light they can put out.

 

[Cyberdude]

While true lots of led coverage requires some wattage and coverage is what is required in a led tank, peak period isn't for the majority of the day. As soon as the peak period is over, consumption drops dramatically below anything close to traditional lighting. I think we could put the electrical consumption to debate to bed.

 

[Wazzel]

While true lots of led coverage requires some wattage and coverage is what is required in a led tank, peak period isn't for the majority of the day. As soon as the peak period is over, consumption drops dramatically below anything close to traditional lighting. I think we could put the electrical consumption to debate to bed.

It takes me 1800 watt hours to light my tank for 14 hours using 2 AI hydra 52 units. To light my tank with MH wound consume 2000 watt hours, assuming a 250 watt lamp and 8 hours on. To add t5 (2x24 watt, 12 hours) would cost 2600 watt hours for MH+T5.

An 8 lamp t-5 fixture running 12 hours would be 2300 watt hours.

Power savings is there, just not as much as many LED users would like to admit.

 

[sirreal63]

LED tanks do look different that MH or T5 tank, but that does not mean bad. All the colors we get from corals in our tanks are artificially stimulated by manipulating the light anyway.

Why do they look different, a photon is a photon, right? This validates everything people have said in this thread, LEDs are still not a direct replacement for traditional lighting sources. Hopefully that will change soon.

If you read my past posts I have pretty much been saying all other types of lighting are better than led. I have never said leds cannot grow corals but colors on some shallow water sps are not as good due to limited spectrum especially UV. Self shading was a issue and really still is. I have said halides are the best overall for sps color and I prefer t-5 because energy saving and coverage.

I do not disagree. LEDs have been growing corals since the Solaris, that does not mean they grow the same. Many of us are holding off until it is a direct replacement, one that will not cause corals to change, one that will will not cause shading issues and one that will truly be a savings.

Any how I have seen some pretty impressive sps tanks that are leds now.
I believe it is because of two things:

As have I, and in time we will see more. I do wonder how long it will before people forget how corals looked before LEDs.

1.) One is UV is now being added to the spectrum. Kessil even has a small peak around 380 nm.. Could dip much lower yet! cost is a issue her yet.

2.) People are adding allot more leds which helps with self shading.
Like what is being said above that removes some of the advantages of leds. One, now they do not save you the electricity like they are supposed too and a watt of heat is a watt of heat so you no longer can look at them running cooler. But most people do not run leds at 100 percent. I think they could start running more leds but at lower watts. So technically I think a tank lit with leds still could save a little energy vs other technologies but not by allot.

Many of us are not in the hobby to save electricity or money, but I have always tried to make tanks as efficient as possible without compromising the livestock.

I still think halides and leds provide the best light for sps but with LEDS dipping even more into the UV department it will get better.

At this point there are going to be so many leds fixtures the prices have to come down and will come down hard. That was another disadvantage of leds was cost of a fixture, even if they saved you money on energy you could never make up the cost of the fixture.


Controllability of leds is a big advantage.
Not changing lamps is a big advantage.
Being able to make nice sleek fixtures is a advantage.

My point is going forward I think the gap closes. I do not think anything will ever beat halides for color in sps corals ever but as the gap closes there the other advantages to leds that outweigh the disadvantages. It happened with t-5 lighting, one big disadvantage of t-5 was bulb changes and even though they produce close to as good of colors as halides they are now consider pretty good.

I am still in this to have the best looking corals I can, deep coloration, consistent growth patterns and predictable health and eliminating as many variables as I can.

I think halides will be niche and be around for ever for those who want the best of the best and do not care about cost will use them but I think at this point the little loss in color the other advantages of leds might start cutting into the t-5 market and some halide.

 

[Wazzel]

Why do they look different, a photon is a photon, right? This validates everything people have said in this thread, LEDs are still not a direct replacement for traditional lighting sources. Hopefully that will change soon.

Different color temp mh lamps make corals look different, different t-5 lamp combination make corals look different. Why rag on LED for looking different?

Disagree, LED is more than adequate for replacing the other systems. If I would feel that LED is lacking I would have ditched them or not planned on using them on my upgrade. Even tho they are not for everyone, they do work well.

 

[shred5]

While true lots of led coverage requires some wattage and coverage is what is required in a led tank, peak period isn't for the majority of the day. As soon as the peak period is over, consumption drops dramatically below anything close to traditional lighting. I think we could put the electrical consumption to debate to bed.

Agreed... That is why I said most do not run theirs at full anyway so there still can be some savings. But t-5 users do not use all lamps all the time either, dusk/dawn.

I was just offered a chance to test out some led fixtures so I am looking forward to that. I have two frag tanks 2'x2' plumbed together. I tired led on one before and it did not work out but that was a while ago.

Right now I have t-5 on both but was switching one out to halide. Should be interesting.

 

[Scorpius]

The main thing IMO with any LED lamp is coverage and the ability to change spectrum/intensity whenever we want. Coverage issue is fixed with more lamp use per square inch of tank. Spectrum/intensity issues are fixed by keeping our meddling mitts off the lights dials. :lol:

 

[shred5]

Different color temp mh lamps make corals look different, different t-5 lamp combination make corals look different. Why rag on LED for looking different?

Disagree, LED is more than adequate for replacing the other systems. If I would feel that LED is lacking I would have ditched them or not planned on using them on my upgrade. Even tho they are not for everyone, they do work well.

Agreed...

"Photon is a photon" Problem with that is all corals would grow at the same depth be the same color etc. Corals have ways to adapt to different depths and that is what causes the colors in allot of them.

Everything reacts different to light.

Plus people seem to focus so much and the spectrum of light for chlorophyll and there is so much spectrum outside that especially in shallow water where most sps come from.. This is another one of those things that seems to stick with the hobby, this is not the 80's and 90's where most of the corals where softies and lps which came from depths where there mainly is blue light.

Not only that chlorophyll mainly provides sugars for the corals and they need more.

 

[sirreal63]

Different color temp mh lamps make corals look different, different t-5 lamp combination make corals look different.

Has that really been your experience? Under 10k's oranges and reds and greens are a little pronounced, under 20k's blues and purples are more pronounced, and the appearance of the water is different. Under LEDs the basic colors seem to morph, which has been noted all over this thread, and when traditional lighting was put back in place, the colors were the same as they were under led, then began changing back to what they were prior to LEDs.

I have run everything from 4.2k to 20k halides, the corals stayed the same color, with the difference being what was highlighted or less pronounced due to the weighting of the spectrum.

 

[Wazzel]

Has that really been your experience? Under 10k's oranges and reds and greens are a little pronounced, under 20k's blues and purples are more pronounced, and the appearance of the water is different. Under LEDs the basic colors seem to morph, which has been noted all over this thread, and when traditional lighting was put back in place, the colors were the same as they were under led, then began changing back to what they were prior to LEDs.

I have run everything from 4.2k to 20k halides, the corals stayed the same color, with the difference being what was highlighted or less pronounced due to the weighting of the spectrum.

I have not had a color morph issues under LEDs. The colors are the color they were under the original lighting, just a different shade. Similar to changing the color temp of a MH lamp or adjusting the combination of T-5 lamps.

My frags did go through a goofy adjustment period, but after that all was good.

 

[Wazzel]

Has that really been your experience? Under 10k's oranges and reds and greens are a little pronounced, under 20k's blues and purples are more pronounced, and the appearance of the water is different. Under LEDs the basic colors seem to morph, which has been noted all over this thread, and when traditional lighting was put back in place, the colors were the same as they were under led, then began changing back to what they were prior to LEDs.

I have run everything from 4.2k to 20k halides, the corals stayed the same color, with the difference being what was highlighted or less pronounced due to the weighting of the spectrum.

As a follow up since I can not edit my other response...

This could probably be listed as a disadvantage of LED. Having all the control of the colors means you have to set it manually by eye. Our perceptions of color temp are probably not accurate. With MH and T-5 the color temps are "factory set". This could account for some of the coloration complaints. It is just my theory.

 

[jda]

I will disagree...many LED users seem new to the hobby. They buy a LED light and a few sps and come on RC and tell everyone how great everything is in their tank. A few months pass and a whole new group of "LED SPS experts" spew the same crap again!

So true. I will add that most think that their digis, slimers and caps are the same as the higher end acros that other people have. What would really be helpful is if those new-to-the-scene experts stuck around after they figured stuff out and switched to better lights. A few do and have some nice threads. Most don't however, and the cycle starts again...

 

[davehead86]

Agreed... That is why I said most do not run theirs at full anyway so there still can be some savings. But t-5 users do not use all lamps all the time either, dusk/dawn.



I was just offered a chance to test out some led fixtures so I am looking forward to that. I have two frag tanks 2'x2' plumbed together. I tired led on one before and it did not work out but that was a while ago.



Right now I have t-5 on both but was switching one out to halide. Should be interesting.

Most people don't run their LEDs at full strength because it will kill the corals. Not because of savings.


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[shred5]

Most people don't run their LEDs at full strength because it will kill the corals. Not because of savings.


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Did I say that? I think you need to read what I wrote.

I said because people do not run them at full there will be savings.

But I will add allot of people buy leds because they think they will have energy savings.

 

[davehead86]

Did I say that? I think you need to read what I wrote.

I said because people do not run them at full there will be savings.

But I will add allot of people buy leds because they think they will have energy savings.

That's how I read it. Not a big deal just thought I'd add a clarification from what I have seen.

I'll also say that people are now buying leds more for convenience than energy savings. It's far more convenient to buy an LED unit and set and forget it. No chillers needed. No fans in canopies needed. No bulb replacement schedules. No need to have bulbs shipped to you because you live 4 hours for a store that sells bulbs.

I have read through this thread and understand that black box led units aren't going to reproduce the spectrum at the necessary quality but other units can. Especially now that high quality units are adding low end uv light to the tanks.

Everyone likes to think their way is the best and this thread is ripe with just ripping apart led users as some dummies who don't know what they are doing. There are a slew of high quality tanks growing high quality sps. It's not impossible as this thread would want people to believe.




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