Playapixie
New member
Nope. The power consumption and throw-away nature of non-LED technology doesn't jive with my ethics. It's not just the lights; with LED I also don't need to run a chiller or fan.
Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
Tripod1404
Active member
Thank you!!
These two graphs are really interesting. First pictures basically shows number of bulbs and the second picture shows electricity used by the bulbs. Not surprisingly, there ware few HID lamps (which are mostly MH and a smaller number of MV) but they consume considerable amount of electricity. In 2001, almost the entire outdoor lighting sector was HID lamps, in terms of number of bulbs. But in 2015, ~1/3 or that sector get absorbed by LED bulbs and those LEDs use a fraction of the electricity the HID bulbs they replaced..
https://imgur.com/a/Lb6nNnT
https://imgur.com/a/7jgBn3q
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Tripod1404
Active member
I mean MH, T5 or LED aside, this hobby itself has many ethical issues to start with. In my opinion bulb/fixture choice is negligible when other issues like collection of specimens and mistreatment of fish in general are far more critical.
Why is anybody comparing general lighting to specialty applications? If you are, then think globally... I just adopted two kids from Eastern Europe and they still have HID all over the place since they have no money to replace anything... bulbs are cheap to them. The Wal-Mart that I was in last week in Central/Rural Florida still had MH in the ceiling whereas around me they are all T5 and skylight in the nicer areas. Our silos are not really a good indication of what is going on.
I can light my larger tank with MH and reflectors cheaper (initially and ongoing) than with LEDs. Heat is no issue to me - the one month a year it gets to 100 degrees here, it is still 59 at night and my heaters run. You do not save an electricity lighting what I light... you are going to spend the same no matter what you choose.. a singe 250W MH or a trio of Radion G4s at 375 watts (lets go with 125w at the power supply). Even if I wanted to deal with the spread and shadowing issues of just running two, they would still be about 250 watts, so why bother with the inferior performance? Then, my heaters would run all day instead of just in the early AM.
What is the carbon footprint of getting new panels ever 3-4 years? I dunno the answer, but factor this in... manufacturing, shipping from china on a freighter, trucking, disposing of the old ones... not free.
I purchased solar to pay for my tanks and my hot tub (and a bit more) - two things that I cannot even defend in an argument of unnecessary items. There are ethical issues all around this hobby, including whether or not people should be keeping some creatures under inferior lighting that does not allow them to thrive to their fullest... kinda like leaving part of the food pyramid out for humans.
I can light my larger tank with MH and reflectors cheaper (initially and ongoing) than with LEDs. Heat is no issue to me - the one month a year it gets to 100 degrees here, it is still 59 at night and my heaters run. You do not save an electricity lighting what I light... you are going to spend the same no matter what you choose.. a singe 250W MH or a trio of Radion G4s at 375 watts (lets go with 125w at the power supply). Even if I wanted to deal with the spread and shadowing issues of just running two, they would still be about 250 watts, so why bother with the inferior performance? Then, my heaters would run all day instead of just in the early AM.
What is the carbon footprint of getting new panels ever 3-4 years? I dunno the answer, but factor this in... manufacturing, shipping from china on a freighter, trucking, disposing of the old ones... not free.
I purchased solar to pay for my tanks and my hot tub (and a bit more) - two things that I cannot even defend in an argument of unnecessary items. There are ethical issues all around this hobby, including whether or not people should be keeping some creatures under inferior lighting that does not allow them to thrive to their fullest... kinda like leaving part of the food pyramid out for humans.
ReefCowboy
New member
MH lamps are for sure dropping. Lets face it leds are everywhere, if one runs a warehouse, why run MH’s in todays age. In my house everything is led, EXCEPT my reeftank.
Bpb
New member
Yeah I'm gradually changing over to LEDs everywhere in the house as I run out of cfl bulbs. Not on the reef tank though though I will admit. Some local friends with radions are getting some pretty amazing growth and color
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Tripod1404
Active member
Yeah this is my point. I am not saying performance of LEDs are equivalent to MHs in this hobby. What I am saying performance of LEDs are equivalent to or better than MHs in sectors that MHs make the 99% of their sales. Plus LEDs cost a lot less to operate and have longer lifespans.
There is not a single MH manufacturer that only produce bulbs dedicated to aquariums. All the MH bulbs we see are rebranded & modified MH bulbs produced by major bulb producers. For example when giesemann wants MH bulbs they dont produce them themselves. They contract Narva to produce 100k bulbs with a giesemann stamp , buy those and sell them over 5 years. In total it probably takes less than 1-2 weeks for Narva to produce that many lamps for giesemann. I am pretty sure giesemann megachrome bulbs are modified narva nachrome MH bulbs. If sales from other major sectors that actually matter drop (like outside lighting), to a level that MH business in no longer profitable, Narva will shutdown its MH department before Giesemann puts another order. They wont keep a factory up and running to produce 100k bulbs every 5 years for 1 week. This is for every MH we see in the hobby. ATI use Sylvania bulbs, Hamilton use Narva bulbs, Phoenix use Panasonic bulbs.
MH bulbs that were produced for aquarium business was never a major component of MH industry. And they will not be able to keep it alive. MH can become a specialty product, but that will push their prices up and up. They are already expensive bulbs to produce due to many parts and use of rare earth elements. If there is not an option to mass produce them, their prices will sky rocket. If one bulbs costs $200 and needs to be replaced every 1-2 years, how many people even in this hobby continue to use them?
I always liked this thread.
Count me as one of the hobbyists who used LEDs then switched back to Metal Halides.
I have found nothing better for a reef tank than MH. Better coral growth vs LEDs, a more natural look it gives corals, no shadowing problem to deal with, no disco ball look in my tank, no constant dialing in LEDs and better tank light spread.
Simple plug and play and great results.
Count me as one of the hobbyists who used LEDs then switched back to Metal Halides.
I have found nothing better for a reef tank than MH. Better coral growth vs LEDs, a more natural look it gives corals, no shadowing problem to deal with, no disco ball look in my tank, no constant dialing in LEDs and better tank light spread.
Simple plug and play and great results.
I don't use a chiller with MH but when I did used LEDs, I noticed my heater was on a lot more. I wasn't seeing the electrical savings with LEDs that I thought I would.
oreo57
Well-known member
you know a funny sidelight to all this is nobody (or really really few) make LED chips "for corals"...
can't find large COB's in royal blue or blue though almost all whites are royal blue w/ phosphors..
wouldn't be hard to manuf a "reef COB" w/ all the spectrum components of any MH or t5..
Well UV is a bit of an exception but really UV isn't "the bandwidth"
But small market.. little incentive.
you are always really dealing w/ hand me down tech, regardless of source.
just for friday fun.. A MH LED 20k equiv..
Using a base 410nm-ish LED pump and phosphors (though this is ind. chips) almost any T5/MH spectrum can be emulated.
no financial incentive to spend the r/d money or resources on it..
As LED watt efficiency pushes way past MH (currently about 1.5x1) to the 2 or so range even using heaters will not increase above the cost of MH and you will save money .
To be honest and considering other expenses it may or may not be significant.
And of course cost/benefit for the "real users" will shift farther to LED.
It's just Capitalism..
Then again, like t5's and mh's maybe someone will want to capitalize on it.. We shall see.
can't find large COB's in royal blue or blue though almost all whites are royal blue w/ phosphors..
wouldn't be hard to manuf a "reef COB" w/ all the spectrum components of any MH or t5..
Well UV is a bit of an exception but really UV isn't "the bandwidth"
But small market.. little incentive.
you are always really dealing w/ hand me down tech, regardless of source.
just for friday fun.. A MH LED 20k equiv..
Using a base 410nm-ish LED pump and phosphors (though this is ind. chips) almost any T5/MH spectrum can be emulated.
no financial incentive to spend the r/d money or resources on it..
As LED watt efficiency pushes way past MH (currently about 1.5x1) to the 2 or so range even using heaters will not increase above the cost of MH and you will save money .
To be honest and considering other expenses it may or may not be significant.
And of course cost/benefit for the "real users" will shift farther to LED.
It's just Capitalism..
Then again, like t5's and mh's maybe someone will want to capitalize on it.. We shall see.
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Tripod1404
Active member
[MENTION=296038]oreo57[/MENTION], I think it also comes down to the same problem. This hobby is simply not large enough to generate adequate demand for big producers to go in and R&D any type of bulb or diode, dedicated to growing corals. Let this be LEDs, T5s or MHs, producing a bulb line that is exclusively developed to be used in reef aquarium will simply be a bad investment. Resources that can be used for producing such a bulb or diode, can be used to produce a bulb that has a much wider consumer target and therefore it is more profitable to do that. All we have are modified versions of certain common bulbs or diodes, that are tinkered with to work a bit better at growing corals.
Like I said before, There was some talk at Macna couple of years ago that it is actually possible to produce a single full spectrum T5HO bulb that mimics the light coral reefs get, say at 20 meter. But no such bulb is being produced because no major fluorescent light producer wants to invest in a bulb that would have a very limited and specific consumer target. This fits in line with what you said about the LEDs.
One thing with LEDs though, they are much easier to manufacture. You dont need a very large assembly line to produce diodes. So it might be possible for an small company to go in to the business of producing coral dedicated diodes. They will cost more than regular common diodes, but it can still be competitive in aquarium field. This was not something possible with T5s or MHs as you cant have a small but profitable manufacturing facility for these types of bulbs, unless you want to sale one bulb for $200.
Like I said before, There was some talk at Macna couple of years ago that it is actually possible to produce a single full spectrum T5HO bulb that mimics the light coral reefs get, say at 20 meter. But no such bulb is being produced because no major fluorescent light producer wants to invest in a bulb that would have a very limited and specific consumer target. This fits in line with what you said about the LEDs.
One thing with LEDs though, they are much easier to manufacture. You dont need a very large assembly line to produce diodes. So it might be possible for an small company to go in to the business of producing coral dedicated diodes. They will cost more than regular common diodes, but it can still be competitive in aquarium field. This was not something possible with T5s or MHs as you cant have a small but profitable manufacturing facility for these types of bulbs, unless you want to sale one bulb for $200.
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There are plenty of audio sites for what you are wanting...
Kessil might be the one to come up with a reef diode since they attempt to innovate and make stuff themselves. The rest just assemble what is available and write some bad software.
Maybe Kessil will get to where Hamilton/Reefbrite/Gisemann is is where they can produce their own chips. This would be the most important step forward since blue/white only panels got some other colors. Maybe there is not as much money in LEDs as people think if EcoTech cannot make their own diodes, but Hamilton can make their own bulbs?*
*I know perfectly well that the answer is that EcoTech does not have to make their own diodes since the market has not forced them to, but if they can read tea leaves, their market is pulling back a bit with the converts and they should be out ahead of the curve a bit. Economic issues of 2007 to 2010 affected the front running, trendy and poorly run companies... but the companies that supported the hard-core stayed around.
Kessil might be the one to come up with a reef diode since they attempt to innovate and make stuff themselves. The rest just assemble what is available and write some bad software.
Maybe Kessil will get to where Hamilton/Reefbrite/Gisemann is is where they can produce their own chips. This would be the most important step forward since blue/white only panels got some other colors. Maybe there is not as much money in LEDs as people think if EcoTech cannot make their own diodes, but Hamilton can make their own bulbs?*
*I know perfectly well that the answer is that EcoTech does not have to make their own diodes since the market has not forced them to, but if they can read tea leaves, their market is pulling back a bit with the converts and they should be out ahead of the curve a bit. Economic issues of 2007 to 2010 affected the front running, trendy and poorly run companies... but the companies that supported the hard-core stayed around.
oreo57
Well-known member
Yea that's my hope too.. Really is simple..
Violet based pumps have some "issues", primarily efficiency for the most part.
Just not pushing the photons of royal blue base chips..
Fortunately (well in a sense) the "biological effects" of RB (circadian rhythm disruption, blue damage to eyes ect) is pushing the R/D in them as well as high CRI lighting demands.
Sorra, Yuji, and a handful of big players are pursuing it.
Very young tech.
IF violets get up to speed and blue phosphor (high photon intensity is not good for them, a problem that T5's don't have as much due to distribution and material) stability is fixed then RGB phosphor packs will be economically available. Only takes tweaking of the powders. Easily done either directly by manuf. or a 3rd party.
bit surprised it's not done yet really. Think a lot of "CREE" or "Rebel" chips are third parties buying royal blue emitters and glueing on their own phosphor lens..
Piece of cake really..
smatter
Active member
I'm not referring to amps. I'm interested in the dynamic range of LPs. I'm aware that there are plenty of sites out there, that's why I asked, because the facts are contrary to what was said. Using the perceived superiority of vinyl to support a metal halide argument really leaves nothing more to be said.
Tripod1404
Active member
I think an issue with diodes is patents. Since most "good" diodes are developed relatively recently (like 5-10 years), they are patent protected for 20 years after development. So right now, it is very hard for a third party to go and develop custom diodes on their own. They would either need to pay a licensing fee and use a patented design to produce their custom diode (and this assumes the patent owner is giving licenses, which might not be the case). Or then need to go deep into R&D and develop their own diode from scratch. Both options are expensive for a company like Ecotech that is not an all around electronics company and probably not experienced with manufacturing diodes, let alone develop them.
This is why Philips going into LED reef lights business is interesting. These guys are a major company that have their own patents and probably can produce any LED they want. So in long term they might be able to develop diodes specific for reef use. They just announced their coral lights department last year or something, so I am excited to see what they will offer in the future.
https://www.philips.co.uk/c-m-li/coralcare
you can check reeeefbuilders- philips coralcare 5 months and counting
oreo57
Well-known member
nobody has to make their own diodes.. Only need to come up w/ a phosphor formula and contract out.
Thing is it's still "easy" just to add stock diodes in multiple flavors than to bother w/ limited runs w/ higher prices.
SERIOUSLY doubt if the cost is very high since most phosphors will be in stock at any maj manuf.
https://www.yujiintl.com/phosphors
https://www.yujiintl.com/phosphors/view/ZYP650G3-Nitride-Red
I do know (dealing w/ Yuji when I was trying to get constant current strips manufactured using their own diodes) that a setup is cost prohibitive but that was modifying constant voltage patterns .. so board design/manuf comes into play .
THAT is also relatively cheap or expensive based on what a manuf pretends it's worth..
I really believe that if you went to say Phillips and said you want 10,000 Rebel whites w/ x/y/z proportion of phosphors it would be "relatively" cheap but taking profit margins all down the chain is problematic..
If you want 100. that is another story.
Almost all manuf is in China.. Can't be too expensive..
Besides the robots and cost of raw phosphors this is what is "expensive" i.e. not worth the time for reef tanks.. Determine what you want.. Manuf is easy..
Nobody big wants to spend the R&D on a small market..
Phillips coral care took the easy way.. Just throw chip colors at it..
nothing stopping them from the above..
But of course no adjustments to personal taste..
One color LED panels is really a thing of the past.. a short lived past..
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