Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[KCombs]

again, the general civility of this thread makes for a lot easier read...

otherwise I nothing worthwhile to contrbute, just following along and appreciative of the post & info....

 

[nynick]

I had Sol Blues and then Radions. Maybe 420nm was the answer. I doubt it, but I'll be waiting to see. Others have added 420nm supplements to Sol Blues, Radions, and other fixtures and I don't see an improvement.

If you look at the color spectrum of most mh you will see what looks like a cross section of a mountain. Higher in some areas but lots of colors present. A 420 is just that, 420, looks like a cross section of a chop stick.

I think this is what is missing. That wide bunch of colors from the HM need to be in the LED. Some of them for photosynthesis and some just to be reflected back for looks.

In the end, light is light. LED can produce huge amounts of it and much more effectively than a MH. If you replace your old MH with a 2 chop stick spectrum LED you are not going to be happy though. The answer isn't 420, it is "all of the above".

 

[MedRed]

If you look at the color spectrum of most mh you will see what looks like a cross section of a mountain. Higher in some areas but lots of colors present. A 420 is just that, 420, looks like a cross section of a chop stick.

I think this is what is missing. That wide bunch of colors from the HM need to be in the LED. Some of them for photosynthesis and some just to be reflected back for looks.

In the end, light is light. LED can produce huge amounts of it and much more effectively than a MH. If you replace your old MH with a 2 chop stick spectrum LED you are not going to be happy though. The answer isn't 420, it is "all of the above".

I agree with this.

 

[Nanook]

What will be interesting with LED's will be the actual lifetime or useful PAR of the LED over time. How long will the electronics last in a humid, saltwater environment. As a comparison, I have MH ballasts that have been in use for over 8 years still running fine.

 

[nynick]

That was something I was wondering about too. Given that all the electrical components are directly above my tank. I do love all the empty space under my tank though! After a couple of months I can see no stains or build up of anything, anywhere so so far, so good. My lights are only about 8 inches above the water too.

If I should take one guess about the future though it would be that not too far ahead, some LED producer will say, hey, if we mix a bunch colors into a multi chip led we can get it to work exactly like a MH/T5 combo but with 3 times better shimmer and at 1/4 the electricity .... and be the size of a coffee mug! I am really waiting for that day!

Step it up Cree! There is a fortune to be made here.

 

[ReachTheSky]

I do love all the empty space under my tank though!

I always pondered this. It would be nice to be rid of the long and super thick power cords and massive ballasts for good. Clean up some space and wiring.

 

[advancebc29]

2 years and no issues being in a salt water environment as I keep everything sealed just like a lot of other type of lighting fixtures are.

This thread is getting off topic again.

To get us back on topic. People feel that their LED fixtures have failed them and here is the number one reason why.

Halide lights and other forms of lighting like T5s for corals have developed specific spectrum peaks that help corals both grow and color up nicely over the years. For some reason all this knowledge was thrown out the window when LEDs came into the mix. Just within the last year or year and a half have the DIY crowd started to figure this out and now the store bought fixtures will start to play catch up. A lot of people dumped a crap ton of money and time buying and building fixtures that did not come close to the spectrum output of the current lighting tech used like halides and T5s. Then decided to turn a blind eye as to why everything in their tank looked like crap after switching. I truly don’t know what you expected to happen. You can get the same results by drastically changing the spectrum within your current lighting setup without switching lighting technology.

LEDs are capable in the correct combination of matching the spectrum output and intensity of really good halide and T5 setups. You just have to be willing to do your research and compare apples to apples. Unfortunately that only real way to accomplish this at this second is via DIY until the store bought fixtures catch up.

Light is light there is no difference. The only difference that matters in our hobby is spectrum and intensity.

 

[bhazard451]

2 years and no issues being in a salt water environment as I keep everything sealed just like a lot of other type of lighting fixtures are.

This thread is getting off topic again.

To get us back on topic. People feel that their LED fixtures have failed them and here is the number one reason why.

Halide lights and other forms of lighting like T5s for corals have developed specific spectrum peaks that help corals both grow and color up nicely over the years. For some reason all this knowledge was thrown out the window when LEDs came into the mix. Just within the last year or year and a half have the DIY crowd started to figure this out and now the store bought fixtures will start to play catch up. A lot of people dumped a crap ton of money and time buying and building fixtures that did not come close to the spectrum output of the current lighting tech used like halides and T5s. Then decided to turn a blind eye as to why everything in their tank looked like crap after switching. I truly don't know what you expected to happen. You can get the same results by drastically changing the spectrum within your current lighting setup without switching lighting technology.

LEDs are capable in the correct combination of matching the spectrum output and intensity of really good halide and T5 setups. You just have to be willing to do your research and compare apples to apples. Unfortunately that only real way to accomplish this at this second is via DIY until the store bought fixtures catch up.

Light is light there is no difference. The only difference that matters in our hobby is spectrum and intensity.

^basically this. The store bought fixtures have reflected poorly on led lighting for this reason, as well as their cost.

 

[outssider]

if you look at a graph of a 20k radium you can see a spike at around 360nm.

i got 400nm led's and 420's too ....along with a bunch of different whites cyan and rb. I think it's still missing something...could it be the 360nm ? if so, where do we get 360nm led's.

 

[Reefer94]

Most LEDs are absolutely not plug and play. They take time to figure out, as you have seemingly unlimited spectrum options with some of them. There are LEDs that can come pretty damn close to matching the spectrum of almost any light on the market with enough tweaking (intensity aside). MH, you simply buy the right one, you plug it in, and you go. It's hard to screw up. Gets too hot? Add a chiller. Not the case with the million-setting LEDs. There are MANY ways to screw up with those.

There are absolutely enough photos, tank specs, videos etc illustrating LEDs are here to stay and work. Honestly, if you think they "still need to be proven," you're either under a rock or purposely turning a blind eye. But, given the broad range of variability with LED fixtures, failing with them is much easier, and generally amounts to one of three things - user error, poor hardware from the outset, or personal dis-satisfaction with appearance. The lights themselves are fine and work. Standardized settings and bulb color frequencies would greatly benefit the LED industry, too many options can spoil things if not used with proper methodology and education. Are they as good as MH? Sometimes, absolutely. Sometimes, not so much. The variables here are only the user and application in most cases (of course there's also the case where people buy crap lights, which is also the case with some MH fixtures/reflectors).

Hating LEDs because A) you screwed up using them, B) you simply don't like the variability/appearance or C) you bought a cheap fixture is one thing, saying they are bad or useless lights is quite another, and obviously not the case. Corals are surprisingly adaptive to light variance. There is no "perfect spectrum" in LEDs or in MH that everyone seems to seek - as of now, only the sun.

MH is obviously great in terms of both functionality and appearance. It's proven and it works. But it's not the best option for many people. Same with T5s.

I left my ATI Powermodule for AI SOLs, and I for one, will never look back. Sorry if I ventured too far off topic, but I get frustrated sometimes =/ I don't trash MH lights - regardless of MY personal success, I've seen success documented, just as I have with LEDs. That is my barometer in most cases, confirmed success by a large sample of people. I can't turn away from that. Changing lights mid-growth in a setup also appears to be a shock all in itself to corals, even if it's just getting a different MH bulb or adding T5s etc to an existing setup. Recovery in those cases takes patience and time, as all things do in this hobby, but things will generally get better.

Sorry for the rant

 

[James77]

There are LEDs that can come pretty damn close to matching the spectrum of almost any light on the market with enough tweaking (intensity aside). MH, you simply buy the right one, you plug it in, and you go. It's hard to screw up. Gets too hot? Add a chiller. Not the case with the million-setting LEDs. There are MANY ways to screw up with those.

There are now LEDs that will do so. I imagine they have been around for at least some time, but they were definitely not "mainstream" at least last summer. Back then when I was palnning a DIY, the only real talk was of NW and CW and maybe throwing in a couple WW LEDs. There were still many threads looking for a true actinic LED, which are readily available today.

There are absolutely enough photos, tank specs, videos etc illustrating LEDs are here to stay and work. Honestly, if you think they "still need to be proven," you're either under a rock or purposely turning a blind eye.

I do still think they need to be proven in the sense of having widespread, "plug and play" success. They can definitely sustain and grow coral, there is no doubting that. But I think they are just really starting to be tweaked and explored in terms of spectrum. Most commmercial fixtures stink is what I am gathering from the DIY people. DIY seems to be the only way to go in terms of maximum spectrum. Tweaking a CW and RB LEDs is not a broad spectrum at all. Throwing in multiple whites, and other colors is most likely going to prove very successful.

But, the DIY area is not for all, and even then the info is extremely diluted in very long threads and it is difficult to get a grasp on exactly the best route. A webpage or thread that has minimal commenting posts and heavy info on THE most current DIY trends would be very helpful.

Hating LEDs because A) you screwed up using them, B) you simply don't like the variability/appearance or C) you bought a cheap fixture is one thing, saying they are bad or useless lights is quite another, and obviously not the case. Corals are surprisingly adaptive to light variance. There is no "perfect spectrum" in LEDs or in MH that everyone seems to seek - as of now, only the sun.

I dont think anyone really hates LEDs.....I don't, Im just not(was not actually, from last years experience) comfrotable with them.

A) its not rocket science...but the general consensus way back last year when I did mine was that CW and RB equal instant success. I think enough people have shown, including LED fans, that there is definitely some room for improvement in the spectrum area. Otherwise there would be a 1,000 Sol knock offs and no attempts at introducing more spectrum. I have seen enough reviews of "so-so" results from enough people to know that something is up.
B)I loved the variability and appearance, save for it lacking something. I could have played for 1 year with the balance of CW/RB(plus several WW or NW) I had but still have it lacking something. I loved the ramping. Appearance surprised me....I was expecting dim crap, but it was very bright even at 50%, and the shimmer was great albeit a smidge intense.
C)I made my own with crees. They are not bad and far from useless, I use RB supps on mine. They need to be heavily explored as far as spectrum, and that has only recently started to happen. It may be semantics, but when they have as simple success as screwing a halide bulb in in terms of what LEDs to use, they will be "proven".

MH is obviously great in terms of both functionality and appearance. It's proven and it works. But it's not the best option for many people. Same with T5s.

+1 on halides or T5s not being the best option for all. Yes, Halides are fantastic and pretty honed. Screw in a Radium on a M80 ballast, and your lighting will not ever be a problem. Plug in a Radion or Sol or whatever, and success does not seem as consistent. It will be very soon. I am even contemplating( thanks to this stupid thread ) taking another stab at a DIY fixture. I would love the electrci savings and controlability if success with them was more consistent. Im sorry, but it just is not yet.

I left my ATI Powermodule for AI SOLs, and I for one, will never look back. Sorry if I ventured too far off topic, but I get frustrated sometimes =/ I don't trash MH lights - regardless of MY personal success, I've seen success documented, just as I have with LEDs. That is my barometer in most cases, confirmed success by a large sample of people. I can't turn away from that. Changing lights mid-growth in a setup also appears to be a shock all in itself to corals, even if it's just getting a different MH bulb or adding T5s etc to an existing setup. Recovery in those cases takes patience and time, as all things do in this hobby, but things will generally get better.

Sorry for the rant

I dont trash LEDs.....they will work for people that need the high pros( low heat, low electric) they do offer. I just like a reality check that the savings dont add up for most, and that they are still in their infancy in our hobby.

I have no doubt I will have LEDs over all my tanks from a few years from now and on. They will be very successful. As electric rates skyrocket, and our money grows tighter, I will gladly join in. Who knows....I may be THE pro-LED guy if I try a new fixture with multiple emitters.

 

[OneReef]

I've read all the LED threads over the last year. I've seen everyone's comments. I've seen many LED tanks,in person and in photos. I've owned LED fixtures, I've owned metal halides of various wattages and spectrums. After a full year with LEDs on a new startup 120g, there was no light shock to worry about since i was starting this tank with the leds. Just changed back to halides, Radium 250w for the time being till all this gets sorted out.

To me, there are 3 main points that I feel are accurate.

1) LEDs do work, they do grow coral, and may very well be the way of the future.
2) There are no LED standalone fixtures on the market right now that have the full lighting spectrum figured out.
3) DIYers are still adding and subtracting LED spectrums trying to perfect it.

I think that sums it all up. LEDs work well, but not to the point to where they will outgrow and outcolor a Radium MH bulb. They may soon find the right combo that will do just that, and may blow everything else out of the water. It's just not here yet. Just my .02 cents. I'm not bashing LEDs, I love them, and want to get back in them when the dust settles. Way too many advances way too quickly in LEDs going on to settle on one fixture right this moment. Anything bought right now will be outdated technology in less than a year. I think that's spot on. But again, just my .02.


One more point to consider, you plug in MH and leave it alone. How many people will set their LEDs and leave it alone for 3 years without messing with it occasionally? I changed my settings pretty often, as I was never fully content with what I was seeing. Will coral growth and color be maximized by inconsistent spectrum and intensity levels as people tinker? Just food for thought.

 

[MedRed]

So basically there's the admission that off the shelf LED's do not provide the same level of results and aesthetics as traditional lighting due to lack of full spectrum coverage tailored to keeping corals.

DIY narrows the gap but doesn't solve the problem due to the same lack of reef specific LEDs.

So it's not the technologies fault. It's the infancy of LEDs for aquarium use and the fact that no one is making specific LEDs to meet coral needs.

In the mean time, those choosing LEDs are presented with options that will get the job done but probably not as well as traditional lighting. It's up to everyone individually to weigh the pros and cons of each lighting source.

 

[James77]

So basically there's the admission that off the shelf LED's do not provide the same level of results and aesthetics as traditional lighting due to lack of full spectrum coverage tailored to keeping corals.

DIY narrows the gap but doesn't solve the problem due to the same lack of reef specific LEDs.

So it's not the technologies fault. It's the infancy of LEDs for aquarium use and the fact that no one is making specific LEDs to meet coral needs.

In the mean time, those choosing LEDs are presented with options that will get the job done but probably not as well as traditional lighting. It's up to everyone individually to weigh the pros and cons of each lighting source.

Exactly . I do think the DIY people, who are the ones that have really been kicking this into mainstream, are on to the correct spectrums.

 

[hillscp]

If I should take one guess about the future though it would be that not too far ahead, some LED producer will say, hey, if we mix a bunch colors into a multi chip led we can get it to work exactly like a MH/T5 combo but with 3 times better shimmer and at 1/4 the electricity .... and be the size of a coffee mug! I am really waiting for that day!

Step it up Cree! There is a fortune to be made here.

That day is coming soon

 

[nynick]

That day is coming soon

Please say that you are working for a LED chip producer!

 

[James77]

Please say that you are working for a LED chip producer!

Maybe he is shilling some future release.....

 

[hillscp]

No, but more and more choices are being offered on the multichip LED's. I am putting together a 60W hybrid 30 chips 10000K + 30 chips 445-447nm Royal Blue right now. One is over the center of my tank with two 150W Phoenix Halides (one on the left and one on the right). The LED's are brighter and the Halides have a blue green tinge in comparison. I'll be adding some 420nm LEDs soon.

There is a group on a San Diego reef forum having a custom chip made like this:

channel 1 have 20 white LEDs at 10 000K, on Channel 2 have 20 RB 445 nm, on channel 3 have 10 Actinic 420 nm + 10 Actinic 430 nm, on Channel 4, we have 20 RB 455 nm, and the channel 5 additional 20 pieces white at 16 000K

All individually controllable

 

[James77]

No, but more and more choices are being offered on the multichip LED's. I am putting together a 60W hybrid 30 chips 10000K + 30 chips 445-447nm Royal Blue right now. One is over the center of my tank with two 150W Phoenix Halides (one on the left and one on the right). The LED's are brighter and the Halides have a blue green tinge in comparison. I'll be adding some 420nm LEDs soon.

There is a group on a San Diego reef forum having a custom chip made like this

channel 1 have 20 white LEDs at 10 000K, on Channel 2 have 20 RB 445 nm, on channel 3 have 10 Actinic 420 nm + 10 Actinic 430 nm, on Channel 4, we have 20 RB 455 nm, and the channel 5 additional 20 pieces white at 16 000K

All individually controllable

Was kidding of course .

4 or 5 channels of indivudually controlled spectrums sounds great. Its hard to beat a Radium as far as proven success....but if you could tweak even the spectrum it makes.....

 

[hillscp]

I think it is just the beginning. Multi Chips are the future of reef lights IMO