Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Nanook]

Well, for the folks with large aquariums, you need as many watts of LED to cover the area as you would with a single metal halide and decent reflector. For example, I have a 5ft x 5ft x 30in cube tank that is lit with only 4 250 watt metal halides. It would take at least this many watts with the current "state of the art, high end, professional" LED fixtures at a price of about $4000.00-5000.00. Even with yearly bulb costs of about $250 for this tank, it would take about 20 years before the LED paid for itself, assuming the fixtures last that long which we know they probably won't. So, since there is still high demand for metal halides, with us and the folks growing plants, I doubt we see their demise any time soon.

 

[WaterSkiier]

Well, for the folks with large aquariums, you need as many watts of LED to cover the area as you would with a single metal halide and decent reflector. For example, I have a 5ft x 5ft x 30in cube tank that is lit with only 4 250 watt metal halides. It would take at least this many watts with the current "state of the art, high end, professional" LED fixtures at a price of about $4000.00-5000.00. Even with yearly bulb costs of about $250 for this tank, it would take about 20 years before the LED paid for itself, assuming the fixtures last that long which we know they probably won't. So, since there is still high demand for metal halides, with us and the folks growing plants, I doubt we see their demise any time soon.

That's pretty innacurate, the LED's put out FAR higher par values for watt because they have a much higher electric effeciency, more of the power going in becomes photons then on a metal halide by alot.

Probably in your tank you could use something like 5x 4' fixtures from buildmyled and get exactly the color spectrum you want for less then $1400. Then your total operating costs for the year would be $125 a year for 8 hours a day vs $580 for the metal halides (including electricity at a modest 10cents per kwh.

 

[Nanook]

That's pretty innacurate, the LED's put out FAR higher par values for watt because they have a much higher electric effeciency, more of the power going in becomes photons then on a metal halide by alot.

Probably in your tank you could use something like 5x 4' fixtures from buildmyled and get exactly the color spectrum you want for less then $1400. Then your total operating costs for the year would be $125 a year for 8 hours a day vs $580 for the metal halides (including electricity at a modest 10cents per kwh.

OK Another LED overnight sensation:lol:

 

[gb530]

IMO, LED's work great! Metal Halides are probably still the best for coral quality/growth. You get what you pay for with LEDs, don't buy cheap LED's but purchase quality lights with a lot of R&D on the product ..... I'm happy with my LED's cause I have no chiller, I didn't even notice an increase on my electricity bill, I don't have to replace bulbs for 5+ years, no output loss for those 5 years, coral color pops, and everything is happy. BUT.... BUT if I was rich, I would prob have Metal Halides, lol

 

[TheGodParticle]

That's pretty innacurate, the LED's put out FAR higher par values for watt because they have a much higher electric effeciency, more of the power going in becomes photons then on a metal halide by alot.

Probably in your tank you could use something like 5x 4' fixtures from buildmyled and get exactly the color spectrum you want for less then $1400. Then your total operating costs for the year would be $125 a year for 8 hours a day vs $580 for the metal halides (including electricity at a modest 10cents per kwh.

Even at that with a savings of $455 a year (I'm guessing that $580 is with bulb changes as well? Otherwise that math is terribly wrong.) So even at a savings of $455 a year, it would still take him 3 years to pay off his DIY fixture that probably doesn't look half as good as his MH. In terms of fixture that is, not light.) No thanks - I don't think Nanook wants to spend $1400 on some make shift LED fixture that's going to take him 3 years to pay off in savings, but I could be wrong. Plus by that time Plasma lighting will be readily available and it will be the latest and greatest thing! (Sarcasm) And we will have a discussion of how LED's are so terrible.

I have a 60x25x19 tank. I get away with 2 250w MH fixtures. If I wanted to switch to Radions for example I would need 3 fixtures. At that cost I would have to spend 2k+ for just the fixtures. At 3 fixtures I would be saving no energy costs. Just for laughter's we can go by Bulb changes.... So I'd be looking at around 20 years to pay off some LED fixtures that would be obsolete in a year or two.... No thanks.

 

[bhazard451]

Even at that with a savings of $455 a year (I'm guessing that $580 is with bulb changes as well? Otherwise that math is terribly wrong.) So even at a savings of $455 a year, it would still take him 3 years to pay off his DIY fixture that probably doesn't look half as good as his MH. In terms of fixture that is, not light.) No thanks - I don't think Nanook wants to spend $1400 on some make shift LED fixture that's going to take him 3 years to pay off in savings, but I could be wrong. Plus by that time Plasma lighting will be readily available and it will be the latest and greatest thing! (Sarcasm) And we will have a discussion of how LED's are so terrible.

I have a 60x25x19 tank. I get away with 2 250w MH fixtures. If I wanted to switch to Radions for example I would need 3 fixtures. At that cost I would have to spend 2k+ for just the fixtures. At 3 fixtures I would be saving no energy costs. Just for laughter's we can go by Bulb changes.... So I'd be looking at around 20 years to pay off some LED fixtures that would be obsolete in a year or two.... No thanks.

Or you could go the DIY route like I did, and create a 180w light that is stronger than a Radion, and provides more spectrum for $350. My next build will be over my 72" 120 gallon, and that only cost me $659 in parts... and it has 7 channels, moonlighting, and a touchscreen with gui slider bars for each channel. Both will easily pay for themselves within 2 years, and are easily interchangeable to the newest leds on the market at any time.

Fuzzy Acro growth over 1 month.

- 9/11/12

- 10/21/12
It has encrusted over a half inch each way onto the rocks, and has sprouted a few extra tips. It is fuller in general. Not too bad for leds.

 

[Flagswipe]

Im not here to argue, I dont assume I am smarter than anyone else out there on any subject let alone the tech involved in LED's

What I report is always my experience, nothing else.

I have tried many high end LED fixtures from the names and brands I have trusted over the years in other pieces of equipment that power my tanks.

From experience I believe that the commercially available options right now cannot meet or exceed the colour/growth I get from T5 and T5 MH combos. Im not a DIY'er I have no time no energy and zero skills. I also find it hard to believe that companies with millions involved in their products would not have all the facts and technology needed to build the perfect light if they were all available. Wouldnt there be a dozen different lights on the market by now that ACTUALLY WORKED if this was the case?

I pulled down my last LED experiment last night. An Illumina 260 24". It was replace by a 150 36" T5 tek light with 4 bulbs ( a piece of crap) I expect the frag tank this was over will regain its colour and health in 2 weeks

So thats it for me and LED trials for a while. Hopefully I will be able to stop myself from buying the next "latest and greatest" but I am weak and may not be able to avoid the temptation.

Dwayne

 

[bhazard451]

Im not here to argue, I dont assume I am smarter than anyone else out there on any subject let alone the tech involved in LED's

What I report is always my experience, nothing else.

I have tried many high end LED fixtures from the names and brands I have trusted over the years in other pieces of equipment that power my tanks.

From experience I believe that the commercially available options right now cannot meet or exceed the colour/growth I get from T5 and T5 MH combos. Im not a DIY'er I have no time no energy and zero skills. I also find it hard to believe that companies with millions involved in their products would not have all the facts and technology needed to build the perfect light if they were all available. Wouldnt there be a dozen different lights on the market by now that ACTUALLY WORKED if this was the case?

I pulled down my last LED experiment last night. An Illumina 260 24". It was replace by a 150 36" T5 tek light with 4 bulbs ( a piece of crap) I expect the frag tank this was over will regain its colour and health in 2 weeks

So thats it for me and LED trials for a while. Hopefully I will be able to stop myself from buying the next "latest and greatest" but I am weak and may not be able to avoid the temptation.

Dwayne

You aren't wrong. MH/T5 is absolutely better than the fixtures you tried, no question.

The key most likely lies in the fact that these manufacturers sold you what may be an "incomplete" product at the time, for thousands of dollars.

Look at the differences between an Illumina 260, the Radion Pro coming out, and GHL Mitras. See the massive difference in leds being used? How can you possibly trust these companies when there are such massive changes in a year's time, at the prices they charge? I don't believe they know what they are doing 100%, because they basically copy what DIY'ers have been doing long before they have.

We still need lots of data gathering and experiences, but it looks like the "full spectrum" builds are going to fare a lot better than the blue/white ones. My setup is running great, and I was running 380w of MH/T5 for 3 years before it. It is easily comparable, if not better. Sunrise/sunset is just awesome.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

Today products will be considered "incomplete" in two years as well. I prefer to keep my complete halide T5 setup I have not. In 5 years I might buy the 2015 LED models for pennies on the dollar, if people still use them.

 

[bhazard451]

Today products will be considered "incomplete" in two years as well. I prefer to keep my complete halide T5 setup I have not. In 5 years I might buy the 2015 LED models for pennies on the dollar, if people still use them.

Maybe, maybe not, but it will be the MH/T5 setups going for pennies on the dollar, if people still use them. See I can do that too.

 

[Nanook]

Maybe, maybe not, but it will be the MH/T5 setups going for pennies on the dollar, if people still use them. See I can do that too.

I can't wait for that As it is now, bulbs, ballasts and mh reflectors are holding their values/prices quite well. Bring on those sales:lol:!!

 

[Mmiller40gt]

Maybe, maybe not, but it will be the MH/T5 setups going for pennies on the dollar, if people still use them. See I can do that too.

Halides are already pennies on the dollar but I dont see many hardcore SPS guys changing over anytime soon.

Im sure LED's will continue to evolve. There is no profit is making the same units year after year when they are supposed to last 5+ years. There is no doubt the fixture of 2015 will not far surpass the fixtures of today.

 

[deepseadan]

It's interesting to read everyone's experiences on this thread. I wish this thread was around last year when I threw away $1300 on ai sols. Of course, I probably wouldn't have listened anyway, I probably would have bought into the stories of amazing SPS with leds. Another thing I've been thinking of lately is the percentage of people who are unable to grow SPS and other corals successfully (with color) under leds. In the real world, if you sell a product which doesn't do what it says, people quit buying them. But leds seem to be the opposite.

 

[spinsonic]

It's interesting to read everyone's experiences on this thread. I wish this thread was around last year when I threw away $1300 on ai sols. Of course, I probably wouldn't have listened anyway, I probably would have bought into the stories of amazing SPS with leds. Another thing I've been thinking of lately is the percentage of people who are unable to grow SPS and other corals successfully (with color) under leds. In the real world, if you sell a product which doesn't do what it says, people quit buying them. But leds seem to be the opposite.

exactly... figure i would be seeing tons of used LED for sale on ebay or craiglist, but of no avail. I want to make the switch, but this thread is making me have 2nd thoughts.

 

[sirreal63]

Too often you hear people proclaiming that their LED's are awesome, then you look at their tank and it has nothing in it. It makes it hard to quantify the claims when they have nothing but hype to show for it. Then you have some very seasoned and experienced SPS reefers who switched and switched back because their corals just didn't look the same, didn't grow the same and generally the tank did not as well. Then there is the other group who are very experienced and are happy with them, it kind of makes you wonder what the variable is. We are only now getting into more full spectrum fixtures, but we really don't know for certain that they are the solution.

I am sold on the technology, but I won't use it for anything more than supplements until I see more quantifiable results. With as many variables in keeping SPS happy and growing in with the color we expect, I won't let my lighting be a variable, not just yet anyway. I do fully believe the day will come when I can retire my MH, but I don't think that day is here yet.

 

[qfrisco]

This is all awesome for us as I think LED technology has brought to our hobby the rapid evolution and great innovation in the consumer electronics industry. Metal Halide bulbs have been around since the 60s, but from then until now, there hasn't been very big innovations in metal halide . Same thing with T5s, which are basically straightened PC bulbs. LEDs on the other hand are evolving so much and so quickly, it just brings us more options, and more importantly, newer toys to play with.

I decided that the arrival of the first "full spectrum" LED fixtures was the time for me to jump in and try them out, so I got a couple Vega Colors, replacing the 6xT5s that I've been using for the last 4.5 years, and before that 2x250w MHs. I know some people argue that the Vega Colors are not really "full spectrum", but they have more than just white and blue, which to me was a significant enough improvement for me to jump in.

I'm anxious to see how my experiment turns out. My 90g is mostly SPS, which I decided to cut back and simplify about a year ago, so only have a couple mature colonies, but in a way should be a good test. There is plenty of anecdotal info out there from folks experiencing browning and slowed growth with LEDs, but all of those from the white/blue variety, and I'm looking forward to seeing if run into the same experience.

I'm taking lots of pictures to document unbiased progress, with a very deliberate effort taken to take pictures with the same camera settings, along the way so we can all learn at the same time. I've had the Vegas for 43 days so far, and I need to take some new pictures of my control frags, but below are Day 1 and Day 23 pictures.

Day 1 - ORA Frogskin

Day 23 - ORA Frogskin

Day 1 - ORA MIMF Purple & Green Acro

Day 23 - ORA MIMF Purple & Green Acro

I'll try and take some updated pics tonight, which would be the 43rd day under the Vegas. So far, I have to say things look encouraging. There's definitely growth, which means the LEDs are able to support SPS growth, especially since I'm still acclimating my corals, and my Vegas are currently running only at ~50% max intensity.

The colors also appear to be getting deeper, although it's very subtle at this point.

The experiment continues! I'll post updated pics soon.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

Do you really believe there has been no innovation in MH or T5 since the 60's? Reflectors, ballasts,design, and spectrum have changed a lot. Yes its the same principal function but has been improved. It was not that long ago that 6500K with a flat reflector was the trend. Even T5's that I agree are "straightened PC's", but you used to have a crappy reflector and two spectrums of light. Now 4-6 T5's with good reflectors are on par (pun intended) with anything else on the market.

You can say the same for LED's, they have also been around since the 60's. Fundamentally they still work the same but have added power and spectrum. The evolutionary curve is about the same.

43 days is far from enough time to start raving over the ability of LED's in your aquarium.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

FWIW try to take your picture from the basial disk and up. You pics look almost identical except the LED pics are more zoomed in.

 

[qfrisco]

43 days is far from enough time to start raving over the ability of LED's in your aquarium.

Agreed, and trust me, I'm not "raving". I might be wrong, but I don't think anything I said in my post could be categorized as "raving". Just trying my best to be completely unbiased, giving us the most objective info.

And just to clarify, all of the pics were taken under the Vegas. The only difference is one set is from Day 1 (Sept 11) with the Vegas, and the other from Day 23. And from the pics, it's clear (at least it should be, or you need your eyes checked ) that there is growth - new polyps have sprouted - in the Day 23 pics.

 

[qfrisco]

FWIW try to take your picture from the basial disk and up. You pics look almost identical except the LED pics are more zoomed in.

I actually think that taking macros of the tips are the best way to show growth and color, rather than taking from the basal disk up. Am I missing something?