Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

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Beautiful tank Steve. :thumbsup:

Does your led lay out cover the entire opening of your tank ?
What degree optics ? If any

The biggest problem I'm having is with shadowing of Acropora. With 75 degree optics I think the light is to focussed. And of course when ever I try to increase the light I just end up burning/bleaching the coral.

Everything else does fine lps, softies and even montipora, superman, undata do fine.

Just curious, is it even possible to change the optics on a manufactured unit ?
 
OK - I've got to apologize as I appear to have gotten this OT. Was not my intention - just trying to make a point. But am happy to answer Q's in IMs though. So to wind this up...

First, Joe - I was mistaken. My blue (Royal and ordinary blue) to non blue (whites, red, violet) is more like 1.9:1.

Next...
Does your led lay out cover the entire opening of your tank ?
What degree optics ? If any
Just curious, is it even possible to change the optics on a manufactured unit ?
Thanks! That pic is of the back 2/3 of the tank. Front 1/3 is pretty much sand. Light is directly over the back 2/3's of the tank.

Optics are varied. None on some, tight on others. This is a link to the entire LED layout. If an LED has optics, the degrees of the optic are on the little LED icon. You'll see when you open the diagram.

And I'm not the person to talk about changing optics on commercial products. Sorry.

Back to the topic at hand... ;)
 
I'm just going to talk about the original post real quick. I think both LED's and metal halides are great lighting, but I can't really afford either right now for the propagation systems I'd like to set up. :( If LED's are proven to be as good as other light sources (which I think they will be, the possibilities are ENDLESS.) I think they'll become more popular and prices will come down. Metal Halides are just overkill for most systems, while extremely effective, overkill IMO. Personally, for the price/area effectively lit, I would go with metal halides, for now. :)
 
I'm just going to talk about the original post real quick. I think both LED's and metal halides are great lighting, but I can't really afford either right now for the propagation systems I'd like to set up. :( If LED's are proven to be as good as other light sources (which I think they will be, the possibilities are ENDLESS.) I think they'll become more popular and prices will come down. Metal Halides are just overkill for most systems, while extremely effective, overkill IMO. Personally, for the price/area effectively lit, I would go with metal halides, for now. :)

Yes prices are coming down on LED's and they are getting better every day. My first LED DIY project costed me roughly $4.00 per Watt of light and was not nearly as efficient as what I can build today. To buy a commercial system them would have coated me well over $10.00 per watt.

Today I can build a LED system that is twice as efficient for roughly a $1.50 per Watt and there are commercial systems out there ranging from $2.00 per watt on up to $6.00 per watt dependent on how many bells and whistles you want on them.

Will prices come down further. My suspicion is that in the next 18 months you will see a huge drop in prices. Several LED manufacturers announced they have a LED that will produce 200 lumns per Watt and it should be out by the end of this year. That will be a good jump as the best ones out there today are only 120 lpw and 3 years ago the best was 80lpw. The new ones are supposed to produce much less heat as well so the issues with cooling DIY LED's will reduce expense as well.

Look at the Coral supply dealers and magazines today compared to 5 years ago. There used to be one or two brands of LED fixtures. Now even the big wholesale houses do not have enough room to handle all the different vendors out there. How many adds do you see today for LED's compared to T-5's, or Metal hides compared to 3 years ago or even worst 10 years ago.
 
Don't know that that exists yet. Give it a year or two.

I should chime in here and say that a few years ago I switched to DIY LEDs from Radium MH, supplemented by actinic PCs. My initial build of Royal Blue and Cool While looked terrible. So much so, it bears repeating... terrible.

But since then I've modified it to a mix of Blue, Royal Blue, Cool White, Neutral White, Deep Red, and two Violets; 405 nm and 430 nm. And the tank looks awesome. That too bears repeating... awesome.

The coral color is killer. SPS have great PE, and grow well. But some LPS... not so much. My acans have pretty much all died, slowly dwindling to nothing. A few exceptions adapted, though any red in an acan that is still around is now orange. And my blastos also have not fared very well. And of my two frogspawns, one shriveled to nothing. The other slowly adapted, but still is not thriving. Yet some other LPS do fine. My Duncan could not be happier or growing faster. Same with my Button coral and trumpets. So it's a mixed bag for LPS. Some do well, some not.

But if you get the right combination, the color can be spectacular - much better than any MH I have ever seen. And SPS love it.

That's weird, because my blastos and scans are living my led. My chalices, however are screaming in pain...
 
That's weird, because my blastos and scans are living my led. My chalices, however are screaming in pain...
I think that either means we need to question my observations and/or use of LEDs, that we should question your observations and/or use of LEDs, or that there's something about LEDs and LPS that is tricky that has not been completely figured out yet.

Personally, my vote is for the latter. Thanks for sharing. :)
 
That's weird, because my blastos and scans are living my led. My chalices, however are screaming in pain...

I recently read an article by some guys that had done a test of several different SPS corals under LED's. All of the corals except one grew very well the latter most of the colonies died under the LED's.

My assumption is that the LEDs narrow wavelength spectrum happened to miss the wavelength that particular coral needed. Therefore, it was as if no lights were above the coral at all.

Having said that does anybody know of any research done with LED's and MH side by side.
 
i used mh for 10+ years and when everyone switched to led, i waited to see the results before i finally bought some inexpensive fixtures for my 240g display about 18 mos ago. however, i kept my t5s on as supplemental and morn/eve lights. two things became clear. the zoas, clams, sps did the best. acans, chalices and softies (lots of ricordeas) did not do well at all. they became bleachy looking and shrunken. i had to take all the ricordeas out and put them back in my farming tubs. several reefers i know in the area are either switching back to mh or a t5/led combo with the led adjusted very low. in that case, what really is the point of having the led? in a sps only tank, i think they would do very well but not a mixed reef. i can see the value of lower energy consumption and replacing mh bulbs every 10 mos is expensive, i get that. this is just my opinion, others may have experienced different results.
 
A couple of points to add to this thread because for years I ran halides and find complaints about LED almost revisionist history at it's worst.

First point is LED's are commercially available in about any dominant wavelength you wish. They may be hard to find in cut and mounted stars, but I've seen commercial lights running all varities of dominant wavelength from 400-455nm.

If light in the range of ~420-430nm were required for coral growth we'd be seeing a lot more 420nm actinic tubes augmenting halides in the days before LEDs. I just don't see any evidence that light between 400-450nm is mandatory for coral growth other than manufacturers trying to push exotic color combos to differentiate themselves from others. From a biological perspective blue light of any wavelength is sufficient. At least that's what the pHd's say.

The dominant blue wavelength of single color and white LEDs is far broader than halide or fluorescent tubes, not the other way around. Sanjay Joshi's spectral graphs show just how narrow the spectral range of halides actually is.

LED fixtures have unique potential problem I've mentioned in other threads, and that's optics. Optics collimate point light sources and are likely the cause of the problem. Do you use large fresnel lenses on your halide lights to focus light and increase PAR values? No? Well then...don't use optics on LEDs.
 
If light in the range of ~420-430nm were required for coral growth we'd be seeing a lot more 420nm actinic tubes augmenting halides in the days before LEDs. I just don't see any evidence that light between 400-450nm is mandatory for coral growth other than manufacturers trying to push exotic color combos to differentiate themselves from others. From a biological perspective blue light of any wavelength is sufficient. At least that's what the pHd's say.

First off, there are an enormous array of actinic T5 lights that are and have been available FOR YEARS that have been specifically geared for irradience below 450nm...like the geisemann pure actinic:

giesemann%20pure%20actinic.jpg


And anyone who has pursued good coloration with sps and acans knows that this is a damn near mandatory bulb, in association with other actinic varieties from other brands with a dominant spectrum between 400nm and 430nm.

Secondly, The necessity of sub 450nm wavelength light has never really resided in the realm of growth requirement, however there is equally no study to disprove that the use of sub 450nm light is NOT beneficial...so your assertion holds equally no weight.

And no, the specific blue light is specific to each coral and the structure of its PCP makeup...that is perenidin and chlorophyll, where chlorohpyll a peak absorption is at 410nm and 430nm respectively, but PCP which is found most in corals peaks in a variety of wavelengths...

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so to say that any blue light is sufficient while anything purple is not required because you don't think it is...is an understatement at best.

Truth is, the only frequencies missing from the older generation leds compared to MH's has been the sub 455nm light...which led to the inquiry of whether those frequencies were needed to have a successful LED setup for sps corals.

Thus far, it has been a resounding yes, from nearly every single successful LED user. The unsuccessful ones just cry and go back to their MH...even though the lighting wasnt the problem.

The dominant blue wavelength of single color and white LEDs is far broader than halide or fluorescent tubes, not the other way around. Sanjay Joshi's spectral graphs show just how narrow the spectral range of halides actually is.

I don't know where you are getting this, but MH and T5 cover basically every frequency in the visible range including a lot in the non visible...they cover an number more wavelengths than leds.

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sanjay's graph

LED spectral plot:
Cree_XPGcw_XPErb_combo-1.jpg


you can see that the leds dont cover as much in the sub 455nm and the post 660nm as the MH do.


LED fixtures have unique potential problem I've mentioned in other threads, and that's optics. Optics collimate point light sources and are likely the cause of the problem. Do you use large fresnel lenses on your halide lights to focus light and increase PAR values? No? Well then...don't use optics on LEDs.

This is a valid point and should be considered by novice users as a potential source of any problem with their new leds. However, for advanced users it tends to be a near non existent issue...because the lights are of the correct variety, dispersion, and intensity to avoid this as an issue.

My assumption is that the LEDs narrow wavelength spectrum happened to miss the wavelength that particular coral needed. Therefore, it was as if no lights were above the coral at all.

Having said that does anybody know of any research done with LED's and MH side by side.

There is a plethora of research, most of it is linked to within this thread itself. Do some digging! But to address the "narrow" thing explicitly, we are lucky int he fact that we know what these frequencies are, and all of the leds today can meet these requirements....this is why so many of the advanced user have had enormous success with leds.
 
I am amazed at the success I am seeing here with LEDs. I am 90% done with my newest reef after a break of a few years. Its fair to say I am a novice with LEDs. That being said, my new reef is a std. 29g. with a 20g. Sump. I am seriously considering 20.inch Razor. Does anyone think this might be overkill for that tank? I'm looking to retire my 96Watt PC.
 
There is a plethora of research, most of it is linked to within this thread itself. Do some digging! But to address the "narrow" thing explicitly, we are lucky int he fact that we know what these frequencies are, and all of the leds today can meet these requirements....this is why so many of the advanced user have had enormous success with leds.

That was an amazing post Aqualund, reading through the forum now.
 
I'd like to highlight a detail that Aqualaund made about LEDs that I believe is a source of many issues people are seeing - The amount of dispersion of LEDs above the tank is very important for success. The panel type lights with many LEDs help to bathe the coral with light from more angles and with more uniform light because the LEDs are dispersed over a wide area. The more dispersion you have the better the results that Ive seen. When there is one small fixture the coral gets a lot of light on one surface but large portions of the coral are shaded.
The downside of dispersion is that the fixture needs to be bigger, more LED elements are needed, and more power may be used. Also, there is less intense glitter lines in the tank. Yes it looks cool to have strong glitter lines, "just like the ocean" as people say, but what is missed is that the sun moves across the sky and hits the coral from many angles.
LEDs with T5s also provide more dispersed light, another reason for the success people are having with that combination.
There are some amazing European reefs with LEDs that I've seen, like this one:
http://youtu.be/GC0aXnKQY-E
Notice how the LED fixture covers the whole top of the tank? Notice how little shading is occurring? The par in that tank is probably very high, but the LEDs themselves are probably not blasting out a lot of light individually. Many small light sources combine to create high par, the same as a T5 fixture made up of 8 bulbs that produce about 320 par each can have a par of over 1000 just below the fixture.
 
Going back to Aqualunds posting I will agree and disagree with parts of it.

The first issue is the need for red light. In the ocean there is very little red light and the corals depend primary on the blue light that is more abundant. However we are not keeping deep water corals so some red light is helpful especially for the more shallow water corals. For this reason I prefer using Neutral White LED's in my LED fixtures. They are brighter in the Red end of the spectrum yet not excessive when balanced with various blue LED's.

If you observe each of spectrum's separately for the photosynthetic chemicals you will see they have a primary peak in the blue range and only secondary peaks in the red range. This does not mean they 90% blue and 10% red light but it does mean they can utilize blue light 9 times more efficiently than they can use the red light in some instances. Another factor is the florescence in coral is there to produce the light in frequencies that the corals need when the red light is not available in nature.

now if you look at second photosynthesis protein chart you will see that the entire spectrum from roughly 430 to 550 nm is absorbed by these proteins. There is none in this group that would starve if it did get light below 430nm. However they all can utilize this light to some degree. So is it necessary to have strong light in the 400 to 430 nm range I would say for growth purposes no it is not necessary but it is not detrimental either. Where the 400 to 430 range becomes the most beneficial is when your trying to bring out the florescent colors in the corals. From my experiences and experimentation different corals fluoresce differently when different wave lengths of light are applied to them.

From my experimentation I have found that LED produce some weak areas. The first is the lack of light in the sub 445nm range. The second is the dip in the 480 nm to 515 nm range. These ranges are used both by florescent proteins as well as the photosynthetic proteins. The answer to these dips is very well suited for the addition of strong blue and/or atinic T-5 bulbs that are exceptional strong in these wave lengths.
 
I'd like to highlight a detail that Aqualaund made about LEDs that I believe is a source of many issues people are seeing - The amount of dispersion of LEDs above the tank is very important for success. The panel type lights with many LEDs help to bathe the coral with light from more angles and with more uniform light because the LEDs are dispersed over a wide area. The more dispersion you have the better the results that Ive seen. When there is one small fixture the coral gets a lot of light on one surface but large portions of the coral are shaded.

Yes this is why I moved away from the higher output multi-chip LED's and moved back to the lower to medium powered individual LED's. You also have here as issue of appearance where spotlight lights the top corals and produces big shadows on anything onder it. It produces a very high contrast look.

The downside of dispersion is that the fixture needs to be bigger, more LED elements are needed, and more power may be used. Also, there is less intense glitter lines in the tank. Yes it looks cool to have strong glitter lines, "just like the ocean" as people say, but what is missed is that the sun moves across the sky and hits the coral from many angles.

More LED's does not necessarily mean greater expense. A quality 100 Watt multilead will cost you around $150 for just the LED. It could be replaced with 10 10 Watt LED's for around $50.00 or you can use 3 and 5 Watt leads at under $4.00 each. Also keep in mind that the 100 watt multichip arrays are rated usually well below 80 lumns per watt while the smaller lead running in the 3 watt range are now rated sometimes in excess of 120 Lumns per watt. So in reality your loosing less.

Ah the shimmer effect. Well I'll tell you a little secret I run a series of LED''s without lenses 2" above the water line angled at a 45 degree angle to the rear back of the tank. Any water movement at all ion the surface will be seen throughout the tank thanks to the use of this angling of the LED's.

While I'm using a combination of Royal Blues and Blues for this strip someone I know saw this and expanded on the idea. Ge has all his white LED's located on two similar strips one in the front and the other in the back. The shimmer is unbelievable and if sit there and watch his tank for any time you better not be prone to sea sickness. To me it is excessive shimmer.
 
I'd like to highlight a detail that Aqualaund made about LEDs that I believe is a source of many issues people are seeing - The amount of dispersion of LEDs above the tank is very important for success. The panel type lights with many LEDs help to bathe the coral with light from more angles and with more uniform light because the LEDs are dispersed over a wide area. The more dispersion you have the better the results that Ive seen.
I'm inclined +1 that along with TropTrea.

I do know that my own tank looks pretty good under LEDs (IMO), and its LEDs are individual chips (a lot of them) spread across the width of the tank. It eliminates the shadows, and - like a moving sun - hits the corals with light from many angles. And all the local reefers that I know that have used LEDs to light their tank with highly directional - point source light - be it multi-chip LED's or tightly focused fixtures using tight optics, high over the tank - none of them have fared well. So maybe there is something to this.

Then again, there are lot of nice tanks out there with only one or two MH bulbs over the tank, which seems to contradict the necessity of light from multiple angles.
 
Then again, there are lot of nice tanks out there with only one or two MH bulbs over the tank, which seems to contradict the necessity of light from multiple angles.

A decent halide reflector spreads the light out and doesn't create hot spots like optics on LEDs will. PAR is usually pretty uniform with a good halide setup.

LEDs with optics can create intense hot spots.
 
I'm extremely happy with my 2 Vega color LEDs and with paying 34 cents per KW hour in San Mateo County, i would never go back with running metal halides.

I took awhile for my corals to get used to my LEDs and now everyone is happy in the tank.

Thanks,
Randy
 
Agreed Ryan. :) Or at least with the idea that the reflector spread the light out over a wide area.

But without understanding MH reflection better, I have to ask - what does is say about the angles that light hits a given coral? That's a completely different thing than how far the light is spread out. With muliti-chip LEDS light hits from (pretty much) one angle. With many separate, spread out LEDs(not restricted by optics) it hits corals from many angles.

What happens with a well reflected MH light? At best the difference in angles cannot be greater than the maximum width of the reflector.
 
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