Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Khemul]

If someone can show me scientifically that metal halide is superior at caring for corals than led lighting then please show me. I don't need to see examples, I would like to see hard evidence if it exists.

The scientific side of it all has been gone over multiple times in other threads. Essentially the short version of it is that spectrum and delivery are different with LED vs MH. It isn't necessarily that one is superior to the other, just that one is already established and thus preferred by a lot of people.

But the actual problem needs no science to prove it exists, just simple logic. The colorful SPS corals that people often love and obsess over are grown and colored under MH and/or T5. Which means they are optimized for MH/T5. Spectrum, spread and intensity. These are all different with LEDs (to compound the problem, LED is so variable that these factors change across different LED fixtures). Which means that the corals will be different under LEDs. Different colors and growth because of differences in spectrum, spread and intensity. Whether this is a bad thing is entirely subjective. Which is why we have the same old debate repeating in these threads.

 

[ridetheducati]

Where do I purchase LED optimized corals?

 

[mixedreefjunky]

Check out this thread, "SPS success with LED's!!!". And actually look thru it not skipping pages and if your open minded you'll see that LED's are just as good as MH. As far as which is better, well that's subjective and different for everyone.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2290355

 

[Fredfish]

LED are expensive, ...

Luxeon T 8 up Royal Blue, $12. Thats $1.50 per chip for the luxeon es package, less than 1/2 of the current going rate for a one-up.

Bridgelux Vero 10 whites. Silly high lumens @ 1 amp.

They just keep getting cheaper...

Now, thats not going to help for a shallow tank like a 40 breeder, but if you are 24"+ in height, these are a very attractive option... for DIY

...take a lot of tinkering with too many options,...

This, first and foremost. LEDs are still the new kid on the block and there is not widely agreed on 'gold standard' setup. It will come.

Those optics are what help spread the light and mix the individual colors.

Not from what I understand. Most DIYers are removing the secondary optics and reflectors if possible because the tend to increase disco.

Then LED is perfect for you. LPS and softies like LED.

Photons are photons regardless of source. Softies like photons. SPS like photons.

And after a few months I also continue to notice better growth and color and even thickness of my sps.

and Powerboat Jim noticed little change. What are we to make of that?

The only be all and end all light source is the Sun. everything else is but a pale imitation.

 

[Fredfish]

...A lot of out corals do grow in 6k at just inches below the waters surface but even they look like garbage at their natural light.

You should see them at 30 meters. They all look a butt ugly bluish grey.

What you see under the most popular MH and T5 lights bears no resemblance to anything I've seen on a reef. Even at 15 to 20 meters, light on a reef is much more white than what is popular for reef tanks these days. Part of that has to do with how your brain post processes what you see.

 

[jda]

Check out this thread, "SPS success with LED's!!!". And actually look thru it not skipping pages and if your open minded you'll see that LED's are just as good as MH. As far as which is better, well that's subjective and different for everyone.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2290355

You will also see that some of the major contributors have since switched from LED to MH. ...some not. That is the best thread out there for shots and discussion since most of them turn out like this.

 

[HaroldT]

I'll gladly take the metal halide side.

I used LEDS for 2 years before switched back to metal halides.

I know quite a few other hobbyists who have also switched from LEDs to Metal Halides for several reasons.

Biggest reasons: LEDs going out early and need replacing (some are on their 3rd system), LEDs that lose a lot of their original PAR after only a few years (often not considered), savings cost not as much as originally expected (heaters), shadowing and just plain better growth under metal halides.

MH > LEDs

 

[AcroporAddict]

This thread is awesome. It's like watching people argue politics on facebook. There is a point, where no matter how much evidence you have, the other side will never agree with you. I read so many posts and comments with people arguing so hard to convince others that will never be convinced despite how many facts and figures either side presents.

The folks that just hate LED lighting are not going to be swayed arguing in this thread. You can show great LED tanks, argue light and spectrum but your not going to get anywhere. Likewise MH supporters can give plenty of examples of people that have switched back to MH from LED and have better growth and argue that MH is more like the sun, but your not going to get a person that is happy with LED to change their mind.

If someone has posted multiple times in this thread either pro or con one lighting source or another and had their mind changed by arguing I would like to hear it!

Folks are not necessarily LED haters. I have posted in this thread, and IME, LEDs don't give the color intensity from SPS corals that halides do, so I use halides over my SPS reef. But for LPS ant soft corals, LEDs are perfect, so I use two Radion Pros over my 100 gallon mixed LPS/softy reef. Not a matter of hating anything, just a matter of using the appropriate light that gives the best color results for the type of coral you are keeping.

I tried AI Sol Blues for a year, followed by Radions for a year after that, and they both grow SPS, but the colors are nowhere near as intense as you can have using Radium halides or a halide/T5 combo.

That may not be everyone's experience, but plenty of reefers have had the same results.

 

[power boat jim]

and Powerboat Jim noticed little change. What are we to make of that?

The only be all and end all light source is the Sun. everything else is but a pale imitation.

Power boat jim will soon discontinue the use of the 400w MH over the center of his tank due to seeing continued lack luster changes from the MH. Results after nearly 3 months are mixed. the only coral that showed positive results since putting the MH back was the Millie. It paled out my pink bagmani (sp) but it continues to grow ok. None of the new frags I put in under the mh are doing any better then the ones under the LEDs. My granulosa also faded to a pale brown. So I see no point in using this light much longer since the leds do the job as well or better in my case without the heat in my room. I am neither pro LED or MH. Its just what happened here.

I have said all along there are certain corals that seem to grow better under certain kinds of light, but I can get more then enough high end corals to grow under LED and look every bit as good as MH. So take it for what its worth. What does it tell you if you change light sources over 1/3 a tank and have little discernible difference over that section in three months time?

I will add that the coral looked and grew better when I added full spectrum LEDs to the SOLs a year or so ago, adding MH to that mattered little.

 

[Fredfish]

Power boat jim will soon discontinue the use of the 400w MH over the center of his tank due to seeing continued lack luster changes from the MH...

Thanks for checking back in. I was wondering when we would hear from you. It would appear that photons really are just photons then and that you found the right mix for your tank.

You may have posted this before, but I don't remember seeing it. What colour leds did you add to your SOLs?

 

[power boat jim]

Thanks for checking back in. I was wondering when we would hear from you. It would appear that photons really are just photons then and that you found the right mix for your tank.

You may have posted this before, but I don't remember seeing it. What colour leds did you add to your SOLs?

I have 2 buildmyled 60 in strips that include red, some green, various white and various blue spectrum leds. One strip is 1200k overall and is too white for me. I bought a second one and customized it to remove some of the 35K white and replace it with more 10k and 20k spectrum. It is a much more pleasing light and seems to be the one that really made the difference.

You are right I believe I found the right combo for me. THe sols did well on their own but I think needed a little help. This combination seems to be as good as it gets for this tank.

I have the spec sheet for the lights but its just not handy at the moment.

 

[MedRed]

Thanks for checking back in. I was wondering when we would hear from you. It would appear that photons really are just photons then and that you found the right mix for your tank.

You may have posted this before, but I don't remember seeing it. What colour leds did you add to your SOLs?

I'd advise against latching onto singular evidence that supports what you want to believe.

 

[Fredfish]

I'd advise against latching onto singular evidence that supports what you want to believe.

Oh oh, you mean photons aren't really just photons? Did I latch to quickly?

I'm pretty sure that I've looked at a little more than just Jim's little experiment. It is a pretty good data point though in that it was conducted on a mature, stable tank.

 

[Tangaroa]

Oh oh, you mean photons aren't really just photons? Did I latch to quickly?

Didnt you know that there are different types of photons.

You can have GOOD photons that come from MH lamps and...

You can have NAUGHTY photons that come from LED's

I thought everybody knew that?

 

[nynick]

The MH photons aren't great. Everyone knows that the natural sun photons are far superior!

 

[firebirdude]

I'll gladly take the metal halide side.

I used LEDS for 2 years before switched back to metal halides.

I know quite a few other hobbyists who have also switched from LEDs to Metal Halides for several reasons.

Biggest reasons: LEDs going out early and need replacing (some are on their 3rd system), LEDs that lose a lot of their original PAR after only a few years (often not considered), savings cost not as much as originally expected (heaters), shadowing and just plain better growth under metal halides.

MH > LEDs

Pretty much me word for word. I used LEDs for just over 2 years. Growth was fair, coloring sucked. While removing the fixture from my tank, I noticed I had one LED out and two that were obviously WAY WAY dimmer than when installed. Barely even on. Switched to one 250W halide. Haven't looked back.

 

[stancfii]

LED for 1yr+ = no coralline algae and no noticeable growth.
2 months 150w Phoenix on M81 ballast = coralline explosion, growth greatly accelerated.

Fwiw, I tested the par on a local 20gal, and the guy was using a radion 2 on the 14k setting, hung 8" above the surface. He had it max out at maybe 5% out of fear of burning his corals (ZOA's, lps, and a birds nest frag). When I tested the par, I got a reading of 28 on the surface, underneath the center of the fixture! The main complaint was no growth, but nothing had died except some stn of his birds nest. His light had been set that way for 6 months, and we are slowly increasing the par to see if we can encourage growth.

I think it goes back to PUR vs PAR. I think Led spectrum is similar to laying on a couple of nails, vs the MH spectrum being like laying on a bed of nails. You can have way more PAR (and a brighter tank) w MH, or far less PAR (and dimmer tank) with LED. I think it is too easy to crank an LED up too high to the point where you are driving that nail to the point that photoinhibiton kicks in, and it happens at a far lower par than we may think. The best solution (to me) seems to be many more LEDs ran at a far lower amperage. I have no idea about the color, that is a whole 'nother issue and for me, led couldn't give me the color I wanted.

I'd be interested to know what power boat Jim's par readings are. That might provide a lot if insight on how he has had success w LEDs.

 

[MedRed]

Oh oh, you mean photons aren't really just photons? Did I latch to quickly?

I'm pretty sure that I've looked at a little more than just Jim's little experiment. It is a pretty good data point though in that it was conducted on a mature, stable tank.

Except that LED tanks just don't have the coloration of comparable traditionally lit tanks. LED tech isn't there yet no matter how much the supporters want to make it seem like it is. I was a former LED supporter and user. Went back to MH and never looking back. P.S. I still have an LED fixture over my tank that I'm strictly using for a lunar cycle.

 

[jda]

Bubbles in water are just bubbles in water, right? So a skimmer is a skimmer - the bubbles and the water doesn't care about label on the apparatus, right? I mean, they are just bubbles and water and the bubbles from the skimmers in the ocean are way better than the ones in our homes, right? SeaClones for everybody.

Here is what kills me about the "photon is a photon" argument - a photon is a quantum of the light, not the actual light it's self. This is like saying that a calorie is a calorie to the human body when ingested based just on the quantum and not factoring if if the food is lean protein or motor oil. "Photon is a photon" is a simpleton argument IMO.

 

[DavidinGA]

I have two reefbreeders over my tank and have the washed out look. Do people supplement something else to get some more warm color added back in???

Thanks