Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[shred5]

Problem for Halide is if enough people stop buying them like governments and warehouses and such. Then their wont be enough demand to justify having a factory making the equipment. Our hobby just wont create enough demand to keep a factory going. This is why I suggested stocking up since I can see the trend already in government and we know how slow they are. Also cheap energy will be a problem soon as well if the epa keeps cracking down on coal plants. If you cant see any of those trends well then :debi:, I guess one day you will be surprised.

If you read my earlier post I talk about trends. I work in the lighting industry and I posted what counts to owners is money... I know exactly what is being sold, I know energy codes and lighting codes and we do lighting studies.. We do electrical all around the world too for everything, wharehouses, industrial, office, banks, roadways, parking lots, stadiums, etc... I think you need to go read all my post..

But I expect that from someone living in California because you guys and Florida have extreme energy codes.. It aint that way everywhere..

 

[Wazzel]

The problem with this statement is that if something works and works very WELL, then there isn't $$$ in making it %3 better. If someone could make MH %50 better, I think they would, but businesses and consumers aren't going to upgrage or invest at a premium for something that is only just slightly better.

Magnetic ballasts have been around since before many of us were alive... They work and work very well, albeit inefficient. In come electronic ballasts. Electronic ballasts were a significant improvement over mag ballasts in efficiency. So some started using them, but mag MH ballasts are still much cheaper, and are serviceable in the field very easily. This is why mag ballasts are still the primary ballast for MH and HPS in industrial, commercial, and parking lot lighting.

I agree and believe LED (or possibly plasma in the case of reef or HID applications) is the technology of the future, but I also believe that we will see a leveling off. At some point, companies have to start spending less $$$ on R&D and realizing the profits of the technology. We will see a leveling off and much fewer changes once that happens. We will start seeing only small incremental changes every year to get the "gear junkies" to buy the latest and greatest model...

When that happens, I will likely reinvest in LED. I had one of the best, if not THE best LED fixture on the market, the GHL Mitras, and I sold it and went back to MH, for now. It was an excellent fixture and did grow corals, but color shifted many of my corals. The biggest problem I had was lack of knowledge. VERY few of us truly understand the exact spectrums and intensities of each of those spectrums our corals need to thrive. With LED many users go by the "Well, that looks nice" method. Some may get lucky, others not so much. Please understand, this is not a criticism of the technology. As hobbyists, we need more "pre-programmed" modes for the lights. I asked GHL over and over to please provide a program that mimicked a 250w and 400w Radium. They did not deliver. I don't know if this is because they couldn't or wouldn't do it, but it definitely says something...

All this to say, MH doesn't NEED to innovate because businesses and consumers are still buying them! They work well for the applications they are used for and the technology is limited by its design. If you change the tech, it is no longer MH, and there are other more promising technologies in the long run where R&D dollars are being spent, LED and Plasma.

Don

I disagree, if any tech is not advancing it will get passed by something else. Lighting is no different. There is always a need to get better. I do not follow what is going on in the MH world, but are companies still refineing ballast, lamps and reflectors? I know when I was using MH reflectors were constantly being improved. When I was researching gear for this tank I noticed not much had changed in the MH world in my years off.

Yes I also agree on LEDs will one day reach a plateau, just like what came before and what will come after. Lack of knowledge is, IMO, the biggest obsticle to LEDs currently. I think the power is there and the fixtures are close, if not there. Lighting, whatever it is, is selected by a combination of what looks nice and what grows corals. The flexability of LED allows the user to tweak to there preference. But yes there is a lack of understanding from the users. Not sure if presets are the answer, more education and shareing of experience will help lots.

Anyway, I appreciate the civil thoughtful comments.

 

[jda]

I guess that I never knew that ATI, Hamilton, Aquamedic, Giesmann and the like supplied so many units to light government warehouses. ...not to mention the hydroponics industory with their massive amounts of HPS and MH.

Personally, I welcome the heat. It is not the problem for all (I can see how it is for some) when most of us keep tanks warmer than the ambient air. Better stock up on aquarium heaters for the day when warehouses don't need them anymore.

 

[Wazzel]

Very well put!

A well marketed, inexpensive, plug and play full spectrum LED with ONE button for intensity is sure to be a huge success and quickly take a leading market place. Make 2 versions, one pinpoint for the MH users who like looks, shadows and shimmer and one spread out for T5ers who value growth the most.

What the market needs right now is a good old fashioned investment capitalist to snap all the techies into place and force them to make lights for us instead of themselves.

P.S. This is a discussion on reef lights. You forgot to get personal and insulting.

I prefer exchanging information and opinions in a civilized manner. It benifits all involved.

A simple full spectrum LED, would probably benifit some. I like the tweakabilty of my fixture, personal preference.

 

[d2mini]

I mentioned that earlier.. Halides dont have as much self shading as led but they are a semi point source too and have hot spots... It can be fixed for leds though by making a well designed fixture. You would need a fixture where some of the leds shine more at angles and not straight down.. You put a row in front shinning back and a row in the back shining forward. The problem is leds fixtures are so small, but if you spread the Leds out you get spot lighting.. Tuff thing to actually do without increasing the cost of the fixture allot.....

You want less self shading t-5 is the real way to go...

Most of your post above is opinion though.

I seriously think the best lighting right now is t-5/led hybrid...

Yep, that's why I said "IMHO".
I prefer the mh/t5 combo.
Too many qualities and problems of LED that I don't like to bother mixing them with T5.

 

[Wazzel]

I mentioned that earlier.. Halides dont have as much self shading as led but they are a semi point source too and have hot spots... It can be fixed for leds though by making a well designed fixture. You would need a fixture where some of the leds shine more at angles and not straight down.. You put a row in front shinning back and a row in the back shining forward. The problem is leds fixtures are so small, but if you spread the Leds out you get spot lighting.. Tuff thing to actually do without increasing the cost of the fixture allot.....

You want less self shading t-5 is the real way to go...

Most of your post above is opinion though.

I seriously think the best lighting right now is t-5/led hybrid...

That is the one thing I do not like about my LED fixture. I run a Hydra52. With that number of LEDs they could have spread them some to help with that. I do not find it to be a big deal, yet. We will se how that goes as my tank grows in.

 

[dcmartinpc]

If any tech is not advancing it will get passed by something else.

This statement I agree with. It will eventually get passed. Semantics I guess

I think what we are seeing with MH is that the technology has pretty much reached its peak. Reflectors have been refined, ballasts redesigned and made more intelligent and efficient and bulb gas mixtures tweaked. I don't really think there is much more we can expect of MH, but then again, it works very well.

LED will mature, as will our understanding. Once that happens I believe we will see more and more people switch. For now I am happy with my decision as I am sure you are as well.

Don

 

[jda]

How do any of you know that LED will mature? Power Compacts had promise but went nowhere. There is some serious thought that to make a warm LED (wide spectrum), that it will use the same power as other light sources and the only efficiency is from the cut/limited spectrum - Phillips had a nice paper on this, IIRC. This might just be what they are. The next best thing rarely ends up being the next best thing.

 

[Wazzel]

This statement I agree with. It will eventually get passed. Semantics I guess

I think what we are seeing with MH is that the technology has pretty much reached its peak. Reflectors have been refined, ballasts redesigned and made more intelligent and efficient and bulb gas mixtures tweaked. I don't really think there is much more we can expect of MH, but then again, it works very well.

LED will mature, as will our understanding. Once that happens I believe we will see more and more people switch. For now I am happy with my decision as I am sure you are as well.

Don

I guess.

Quite possibly MH has reached it's peak and it does work well.

I agree that LED will mature some more and people will be continueing to use the tech, especally on new builds. Yes I am happy with going LED this time around. I still see benifits to using MH for some. Each system has pros and cons that need to be weighed by the individual reef keeper.

I would like to see more on what is working and how it can be cleaned up insted of the "it sucks, throw it in the trash" approach.

 

[Wazzel]

How do any of you know that LED will mature? Power Compacts had promise but went nowhere. There is some serious thought that to make a warm LED (wide spectrum), that it will use the same power as other light sources and the only efficiency is from the cut/limited spectrum - Phillips had a nice paper on this, IIRC. This might just be what they are. The next best thing rarely ends up being the next best thing.

it is an opinion. There appears to be some things that can be improved. So based on what I have seen there is atleast some room for growth.

 

[dcmartinpc]

How do any of you know that LED will mature? Power Compacts had promise but went nowhere. There is some serious thought that to make a warm LED (wide spectrum), that it will use the same power as other light sources and the only efficiency is from the cut/limited spectrum - Phillips had a nice paper on this, IIRC. This might just be what they are. The next best thing rarely ends up being the next best thing.

You hit the nail on the head with spectrum.

When I say mature, I moreso mean our understanding and implementation of them will mature. Maybe one day there will me a MH sized reflector full of LEDs that uses the same amount of energy as MH, but doesn't need the bulbs replaced once or twice a year and lasts 5 or 6 or even longer. I have no doubt something will displace MH, will it be LED? Maybe? Probably?

Only time will tell.

Don

 

[jda]

Replacing something as widely used as lighting is not a trivial exercise - this applies to general use and not just for hobbies. I go back again to transportation and energy, which are the only two industries that are at least as widely used that I can come up with since more people have lights and electricity than they even have cars, computers and other things... Appliances might be a good choice too. Hundreds of ideas have come along with good promise that never materialized past 90% since not only do they have to be significantly better, but also profitable. That last 10% is where the rubber hits the road.

I think that the one thing that everybody will agree on is that time will tell. I also think that it is fine to hope, but making plans based on this might just be like the people who invested in Hovercraft and Jet Packs in the 1970/1980s, 1980s Detroit diesel cars in the 1980s with their promises and tech trajectories of 100+ mpg, personal personal sized solar power plants and having transportation to/from and colonies on the moon by the year 2000 shortly after the first space expedition.

 

[nynick]

A simple full spectrum LED, would probably benifit some. I like the tweakabilty of my fixture, personal preference.

I would go out on a limb and say that it would benefit a vast, VAST majority of reefers. We see people that are interested enough to come here and debate it that could not manage 8 channels. Imagine the ones that are even less interested.

I am reasonably good with at least the physics aspect of light and I am very good at knowing my limitations. I almost made a mess of just 2 channels at start. Imagine someone with poor understanding, high enthusiasm and 8 channels.

I get that you and a lot of people that are good at (and interested in) this like the tweakability but we already have a lot of that. What is desperately needed is plug and play LED of very good quality. It should be like screwing in a MH bulb or some T5s, setting the timer and forgetting about it. It might not be perfect but for most people it is as good as it will ever get.

 

[Wazzel]

I would go out on a limb and say that it would benefit a vast, VAST majority of reefers. We see people that are interested enough to come here and debate it that could not manage 8 channels. Imagine the ones that are even less interested.

I am reasonably good with at least the physics aspect of light and I am very good at knowing my limitations. I almost made a mess of just 2 channels at start. Imagine someone with poor understanding, high enthusiasm and 8 channels.

I get that you and a lot of people that are good at (and interested in) this like the tweakability but we already have a lot of that. What is desperately needed is plug and play LED of very good quality. It should be like screwing in a MH bulb or some T5s, setting the timer and forgetting about it. It might not be perfect but for most people it is as good as it will ever get.

Those are good points.

 

[Fredfish]

...

I am reasonably good with at least the physics aspect of light and I am very good at knowing my limitations. I almost made a mess of just 2 channels at start. Imagine someone with poor understanding, high enthusiasm and 8 channels.
...

I was under the impression that lights like those by Pacific Sun had presets that you could go back to. Is that not the case? Seems to me that is about as set and forget as you can get.

 

[Eric Boerner]

As much as I hate to say this....

I remodeled the entire house with 25 year LED lights (read permanent). I was immediately told that they were "TOO bright, and TOO white/blue". Subsequently, every single bulb in the house is incandescent again. :headwalls:

I took this as a clear sign from the powers above that LED needs to be on the reef.

 

[nynick]

I was under the impression that lights like those by Pacific Sun had presets that you could go back to. Is that not the case? Seems to me that is about as set and forget as you can get.

Come on now, you know better. We are humans and even worse, reefers...we WILL touch those buttons!

 

[Fredfish]

Come on now, you know better. We are humans and even worse, reefers...we WILL touch those buttons!

So, person buys light, fiddles with buttons, kills corals, comes to RC and posts LEDs suck?

 

[Eric Boerner]

So, person buys light, fiddles with buttons, kills corals, comes to RC and posts LEDs suck?

You just won the Captain Obvious award.

Isn't that what the forums are for? "I need help, I bought stuff, I killed stuff, that sucked, I need help!!!"

 

[Fredfish]

You just won the Captain Obvious award.

Isn't that what the forums are for? "I need help, I bought stuff, I killed stuff, that sucked, I need help!!!"

That sucked and LEDs suck are two different things. I personally think that a lot of the issues with LEDs are user error. I also suspect that there are a number of people still doing the same with Halides or T5, but they don't post because those are "gold standard" products so its hard to blame errors on the equipment.

Oh, I've already got the beard, when do I get my captains hat?