Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Wazzel]

Basically, most led users set the unit to ramp up to a peak power level then taper back down before shutting off. All those increments where the led unit increases the power level of the channels the spectrum shifts accordingly. In theory that could be great if you had it dialed in perfectly, but how many really are?

I think thats part of the reason mh and t5 simply work - instant on/off and constant unchanging spectrum all day long.

That shift is approx. 10 nm, usually in the first 50% of the power band. I really do not see how 10 nm will cause problems. Mh and tubes also shift spectrum as they warm up.

 

[Wazzel]

I also think to many people think they are mimicing the ocean. There are few things we provide in glass boxes that adequately mimic the ocean. Stop trying to match the sun. Its obvious corals enjoy things to be the same and very stable. The exact number seems to be less important than stability. I think the more the light changes and the spectrum shifts throughout the day the more the coral has to change to adapt. Find the spectrum the coral likes, and bake them with it for as long as they can stand. Most of the fish we have in our tanks arent even in as bright of light as we are giving them to begin with. Lightenning, passing clouds, all cool creature features that do nothing for the animals.

How does that go again? Stability Promotes Success..... Goes for lighting too, not just water parameters. We all know that corals have to adapt to new lighting conditions. That is part of the reason they take a while to get established in new tanks. So if they are run under several different lighting conditions a day they will not fully adapt and grow as they could, that is my theory anyway.

 

[gablett]

Technology advances along whether people are reluctant to use it or not. This is nothing more than people wanting to use their horse and buggy instead that new fangled motor car.

But hey, the horse and buggy are still in use to this day. Pretty darn reliable, consistent, less prone to failure, easier to repair and accomplishes its purpose. It's all cool.

Personally I find the rationalizations and generalizations about LED being inferior to be a bit over the top. A great many people are having success...actually great success with LED lighting. That doesn't mean everyone is going to just jump on the LED bandwagon when they've been having success with something else.

But if people are having success with LED and others are not, then why is it LED's are considered to be inferior or at fault for those failures? That doesn't mean having a preference for something other than LED's is wrong, but that line of thinking is flawed logic.

I disagree. The majority of LED lit tanks, lit to manufacturers specifications are inferior to a tank lit to man. specs of MH or T5. This isnt about us old timers reluctant to change just cuz. We are reluctant to change because there is no proof it works any better than what we have. It is still highly cost prohibitive for large tank. Its in its infancy still. It is inferior. Whether that be the fault of the manufacturer or the users manipulation of the settings. There have been no manufacturers come out with hard and fast settings to get a specific spectrum.

A small fraction are having what would be considered great success with LEDs to the most critical SPS fanatic. Look we know we are splitting hairs in some instances as to which is better. But shouldnt we? I know in my situation I worked darn hard to get my tank where it is to have the kind of growth and color I wanted and expected. Im not going to switch to an unproven lighting source just because its the new thing, the tech is headed that way or any other reason.

They are considered inferior because the majority are not seeing the results that the majority of MH and T5 users experience. Its just not there. I've experienced it first hand and so have many others.

 

[markalot]

Technology advances along whether people are reluctant to use it or not. This is nothing more than people wanting to use their horse and buggy instead that new fangled motor car.

But hey, the horse and buggy are still in use to this day. Pretty darn reliable, consistent, less prone to failure, easier to repair and accomplishes its purpose. It's all cool.

Personally I find the rationalizations and generalizations about LED being inferior to be a bit over the top. A great many people are having success...actually great success with LED lighting. That doesn't mean everyone is going to just jump on the LED bandwagon when they've been having success with something else.

But if people are having success with LED and others are not, then why is it LED's are considered to be inferior or at fault for those failures? That doesn't mean having a preference for something other than LED's is wrong, but that line of thinking is flawed logic.

Again, this indicates to me you haven't read the thread. There's a lot of flippant remarks in this thread but also a lot of discussion about why some fail so badly with LED. For colors ... find a picture of an acropora lit by LED, and one lit by LED for at least a year, that looks as good as one lit by T5 or Halide. It's subjective, of course, but when I see a comparison I choose the old technology because it looks better to me.

So even if people can get LED's dialed in correctly (which is dim to my eye due to the lack of a green spike) the resulting coral colors don't look as good. IN MY OPINION.

 

[markalot]

too add ...

Take Joe Peck, who is talking about switching to T5 because of what he's seen from T5 lit tanks. I don't think anyone really cares what the device is or how new it is ... show results and people will use it as long as it's affordable.

 

[Wazzel]

I disagree. The majority of LED lit tanks, lit to manufacturers specifications are inferior to a tank lit to man. specs of MH or T5. This isnt about us old timers reluctant to change just cuz. We are reluctant to change because there is no proof it works any better than what we have. It is still highly cost prohibitive for large tank. Its in its infancy still. It is inferior. Whether that be the fault of the manufacturer or the users manipulation of the settings. There have been no manufacturers come out with hard and fast settings to get a specific spectrum.

A small fraction are having what would be considered great success with LEDs to the most critical SPS fanatic. Look we know we are splitting hairs in some instances as to which is better. But shouldnt we? I know in my situation I worked darn hard to get my tank where it is to have the kind of growth and color I wanted and expected. Im not going to switch to an unproven lighting source just because its the new thing, the tech is headed that way or any other reason.

They are considered inferior because the majority are not seeing the results that the majority of MH and T5 users experience. Its just not there. I've experienced it first hand and so have many others.

I will put my 1 year old frag populated LED lit tank to manufacturers specification against any other lighting system tank of the same age. Based on what I have seen, my tank looks as good as any other tank in the same age group. I have great growth and good colors. The colors are slightly different than the other lighting systems, but colors vary in lighting systems depending on the color temps of the bulbs selected.

 

[Wazzel]

Again, this indicates to me you haven't read the thread. There's a lot of flippant remarks in this thread but also a lot of discussion about why some fail so badly with LED. For colors ... find a picture of an acropora lit by LED, and one lit by LED for at least a year, that looks as good as one lit by T5 or Halide. It's subjective, of course, but when I see a comparison I choose the old technology because it looks better to me.

So even if people can get LED's dialed in correctly (which is dim to my eye due to the lack of a green spike) the resulting coral colors don't look as good. IN MY OPINION.

Unfortunately most of the discussion is "mine is better than yours, nananan" from both camps and sprinkle in some emotional pressure with comments like "only a real reefer will use..." and the discussion drifts from technical to emotional.

 

[DavidinGA]

That shift is approx. 10 nm, usually in the first 50% of the power band. I really do not see how 10 nm will cause problems. Mh and tubes also shift spectrum as they warm up.

Link or reference to 10nm shift?


It only takes mh a couple minutes to warm up and then the spectrum is dead solid for hours tho...



*I found a few graphs that do show a rather small shift on CREE diodes (I wonder if other cheaper leds have a bigger shift?):

 

[DavidinGA]

Metal Halides will continue to get harder and harder to find as time moves on. Most industry is moving to leds for most lighting anymore and government is moving to led as well. I would stock up on some bulbs if i were you guys, they will continue to go up in price and then disappear. It's actually cheaper for us at the city to get a led fixture for street lighting then a halide now.

True.

I see a huge reduction in the sites carrying mh gear and bulbs every year plus prices will increase as they become less available.

 

[DavidinGA]

I also think to many people think they are mimicing the ocean. There are few things we provide in glass boxes that adequately mimic the ocean. Stop trying to match the sun. Its obvious corals enjoy things to be the same and very stable. The exact number seems to be less important than stability. I think the more the light changes and the spectrum shifts throughout the day the more the coral has to change to adapt. Find the spectrum the coral likes, and bake them with it for as long as they can stand. Most of the fish we have in our tanks arent even in as bright of light as we are giving them to begin with. Lightenning, passing clouds, all cool creature features that do nothing for the animals.

/this

 

[JB NY]

Technology advances along whether people are reluctant to use it or not. This is nothing more than people wanting to use their horse and buggy instead that new fangled motor car.

But hey, the horse and buggy are still in use to this day. Pretty darn reliable, consistent, less prone to failure, easier to repair and accomplishes its purpose. It's all cool.

Personally I find the rationalizations and generalizations about LED being inferior to be a bit over the top. A great many people are having success...actually great success with LED lighting. That doesn't mean everyone is going to just jump on the LED bandwagon when they've been having success with something else.

But if people are having success with LED and others are not, then why is it LED's are considered to be inferior or at fault for those failures? That doesn't mean having a preference for something other than LED's is wrong, but that line of thinking is flawed logic.

That's sort to the point of this thread, LED is being sold to you as a huge technology advance but there are so few real successes with LED on SPS tanks. I would have zero problem putting LED over my tank if I were to get results that were at the bare minimum equal to MH. Is that really too much to ask, just please do the same as I can do with MH, for about the same price. When that starts to happen I will take another look at it.

Also as far as ramping up and down over a few hours with LED, there is little point other than for the viewer. In the wild the reef hits maximum saturation levels within 15 minutes of the sun coming up. If you have MH and stagger them coming on over a 15 minute period you have pretty much duplicated sunrise on the reef.

 

[kevin_e]

I've tried LED (Chinese and Cree) and LED+t-5 (LED+T5 is a must when going LED) and nothing compares to halide. I went back to halides last year after a couple of my LED diodes overheated. I noticed that under the LEDs my corals "popped"; however, when I switched back to halide, they appeared dull and browned out. The fluorescent pigment was standing out under the heavy blue lighting produced by the LED, but the coral's color itself was quite poor.

I've some good LED setups here locally, both with cheap and quality fixtures.

I don't know why LED users get so defensive when this topic is brought up. Just let the results speak for themselves and if they can't, why are we even arguing? Truth be told, there is a reason that a lot of people have given up on LED, have tried numerous different fixtures or are supplementing their LED. It isn't because LEDs can't grow coral, it's because very little people have an idea on how to run their lighting. There is way too much (or too little depending on the angle) contradictory information out there on how to utilize LED.

 

[mmittlesteadt]

I don't know why LED users get so defensive when this topic is brought up. Just let the results speak for themselves and if they can't, why are we even arguing? Truth be told, there is a reason that a lot of people have given up on LED, have tried numerous different fixtures or are supplementing their LED. It isn't because LEDs can't grow coral, it's because very little people have an idea on how to run their lighting. There is way too much (or too little depending on the angle) contradictory information out there on how to utilize LED.

As I mentioned previously, I have no horse in this race. I've used MH on freshwater planted tanks because I also grew orchids along side them...all in a basement. I like it for many reasons. I dislike it for many reasons too. I also utilize many different forms of lighting creating custom exotic animal habitats and displays for private homes and public museums and educational centers.

I'm new to keeping reefs, but not new to keeping FW fish and plants or SW fish, nor lighting technology. Everyone should go with what works, whatever it is. In my business I am quite grateful for LED technology.

LED technology has come a long way in a relatively short period of time and continues to be refined and advanced. Because it is still relatively new, it is still somewhat experimental, so of course end users are going to experience frustration working with it just like any technological advancement. Some people still can't operate or program Blu-Ray players and DVR's. At some point in time I am sure LED will overtake older technology. Change is good, but it is also really hard to accept for many. As someone mentioned earlier...stockpile those MH fixtures and lamps if you dig using them. Ultimately if your reef tank is healthy and you are happy, that's all that matters.

 

[kevin_e]

As I mentioned previously, I have no horse in this race. I've used MH on freshwater planted tanks because I also grew orchids along side them...all in a basement. I like it for many reasons. I dislike it for many reasons too. I also utilize many different forms of lighting creating custom exotic animal habitats and displays for private homes and public museums and educational centers.

I'm new to keeping reefs, but not new to keeping FW fish and plants or SW fish, nor lighting technology. Everyone should go with what works, whatever it is. In my business I am quite grateful for LED technology.

LED technology has come a long way in a relatively short period of time and continues to be refined and advanced. Because it is still relatively new, it is still somewhat experimental, so of course end users are going to experience frustration working with it just like any technological advancement. Some people still can't operate or program Blu-Ray players and DVR's. At some point in time I am sure LED will overtake older technology. Change is good, but it is also really hard to accept for many. As someone mentioned earlier...stockpile those MH fixtures and lamps if you dig using them. Ultimately if your reef tank is healthy and you are happy, that's all that matters.

When halide production stops, it means that LED technology or user understandability has peaked. Until then, a halide market exists as the demand is there. When the demand is no longer there from a market switching to LED, then production stops.

Remember, LED have been around for quite awhile now and during that time, t-5 lighting may have become more popular than ever. I'm not sure you will ever see one lighting source rule the hobby, but rather, several lighting sources ruling the hobby.

It's a niche hobby to begin with, so niche lighting isn't a problem for companies.

 

[mmittlesteadt]

When halide production stops, it means that LED technology or user understandability has peaked. Until then, a halide market exists as the demand is there. When the demand is no longer there from a market switching to LED, then production stops.

Remember, LED have been around for quite awhile now and during that time, t-5 lighting may have become more popular than ever. I'm not sure you will ever see one lighting source rule the hobby, but rather, several lighting sources ruling the hobby.

It's a niche hobby to begin with, so niche lighting isn't a problem for companies.

Very true.

 

[kevin_e]

Very true.

It seems like these multi units are becoming popular anyways. Halide/LED, T-5/LED, Halide/t5/LED

Plasma is another technology that is being developed and of course, solar tubes have been available for awhile.

Who knows what the future holds, but that future is definitely in our hands.

 

[FullBoreReefer]

I'm kind of torn on this subject...

My old 180g reef was MH/t5. Good colors, good growth, but higher bills.

My current in wall reef, ai hydras. Decent colors, sub par growth, lower bills. Can't get a true setting after almost 2years or so. Its usually try one for 3-4mths to see then try another. But, I do like the ramp effect/option. But, again, I think the infinite adjustability is hurting me. AI always just says, great settings, but won't recommend anything...

I kind of miss the old set and forget of mh/t5. Not sure what to do...

 

[DavidinGA]

I'm kind of torn on this subject...

My old 180g reef was MH/t5. Good colors, good growth, but higher bills.

My current in wall reef, ai hydras. Decent colors, sub par growth, lower bills. Can't get a true setting after almost 2years or so. Its usually try one for 3-4mths to see then try another.

I kind of miss the old set and forget of mh/t5. Not sure what to do...

I'd add T5's at the very least (80w tubes)...that way even if you decide to go to mh you would already have your supplemental lighting ready.

 

[kenpau]

I'm just saying the loooong ramping up and down isn't doing anything positive for your coral, just for your enjoyment. And some people are ramping them up and down too long, with not enough time at full daylight.

Isn't our enjoyment the reason we keep reef tanks??!

 

[lpsouth1978]

When halide production stops, it means that LED technology or user understandability has peaked. Until then, a halide market exists as the demand is there. When the demand is no longer there from a market switching to LED, then production stops.

This has been brought up earlier in this discussion, but reefs are only a very small part of the halide market. As LED's are used in other applications, ie streetlights, we will find that halides are becoming harder to find. Many cities across the nation are switching to LED for the majority of their lighting needs, reducing the demand for Halide lighting.

We already see the impact on the reef hobby, anyone know where they can find a Phoenix 20k? Some of the more popular halide bulbs have already been discontinued and we will certainly see that trend continue. The day will come when MH is simply no longer an option. Maybe it will take 10 years to happen, but the day will come. Whether you are ready to accept LED as your lighting source or not, you will have to find something new eventually. Hopefully LED's have advanced enough by then to meet the needs of discerning SPS keepers.