anyone use glass mirrors for MH reflectors?

No matter what you do, I wouldnt use anything that doesnt scatter the light somewhat. Mirrors will make a hot spot for each mirror you use, putting a perfect image of that plasma burning in the tube onto your livestock. You need to use something that will give you an even amount of light dispersion IMO.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6679347#post6679347 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sttroyiii
No matter what you do, I wouldnt use anything that doesnt scatter the light somewhat. Mirrors will make a hot spot for each mirror you use, putting a perfect image of that plasma burning in the tube onto your livestock. You need to use something that will give you an even amount of light dispersion IMO.


But isnt there already a "perfect image" from straight from the bulb to the coral? Just sayin=)
 
The surface of the water acts somewhat to diffuse the light. In all honest you don't want to "scatter" the light before it gets to the tank. You actually want to focus the light into the desired shape and then diffuse it from there. There is a big difference between light being "scattered" and light being "diffused". In the first case, the scattered light may or may not make it into the tank. In the second case, the light is directed towards a diffusor that spreads the light over the desired surface area.

The problem we run into is that for our purposes, anything more than a simple well engineered reflector is cost prohibitive with regards to the amount of return. You could build a hood with a very focused beam of light, using primary surface coated reflectors and state of the art optics to focus the light on the exact footprint of your corals. You may gain 15% or so in efficiency, but you would spend exponentialy more in terms of setup and maintenance costs. It is easier to just add a higher wattage or more lamps.

Again this converstation is way out of the realm if what is needed or feasible for out tanks.
 
I am now in the process of building a DIY lumenac reflector, it is made out of aluminum sheeting and I was going ti re-surface the interior with mirror.
What am I not understanding here ? How can mirror not reflect more light then the average polished aluminum?
I understand that you may have more heat but isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t that because there is more light being emitted? and is so isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t that what we are trying to achieve? emit the most light we can from a bulb to the reef.
Please Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m not bashing any opinions, Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m just trying to understand, I already have the reflectors made and donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t want to have the work of cutting all the mirror, if it is not going to be good.
 
olemos, I think you need to re-read my posts (and those from Adam and Middletown and areze etc) in this thread and then do a bit of research on reflector design. I will cover the general points 1 more time, but you seem to have missed the entire context of this thread.

A "mirror" like you are talking about, is made of glass with a metal coating on the BACK side of it. The light must travel through the glass, strike the coating, then travel back through the glass. In this process many things happen that degrade the quality and amount of light that is reflected. A metal mirror (ex. polished aluminum) with no "glass" dos not have these problems. Again we are not trying to bounce a focused beam of light from point A to point B or transmit a perfect image from point A to point B. We are concerned with moving a maximum amount of light from 3D space A to flat plane B.

The shape of the reflector is very important in regards to how much light is directed towards the tank. A "glass mirror" is a flat surface, and NOT the best or most efficient at transmitting the light from a 3 dimensional cylinder (a bulb) to a rectangular plane (the surface of your tank). An ideal reflector would be designed using a computer to determine the best shape, size and angles to transmit the most light to the area needed. remember the bulb radiates in all directions. Remember that light bounces off of an object at the same angle it strikes it. We want the light going as straight down as possible when it leaves the reflector, not at a steep angle where it will spill out of the sides of the tank, ove r the tank or bounce off the surface of the water.

There is a lot more to talk about but it is not worth quibling about and. Lets put this another way. The "luminarcs" themselves are a design compromise for many reasons but likely are also optimized for their cost. To build a "knock off" that is not an EXACT copy is likely going to be even more of a compromise. Adding glass mirrors that are less efficient than polished aluminum will degrade the efficiecny even more. So in the end you may have what looks somewhat like a luminarc but performs 15-20% less efficient in terms of the amount of light transmitted to your tank.
 
I have not looked at the reflectors inside of these bulbs, but they would be bound by the same laws of physics that a regular reflector would be. If the are FLAT then they scatter the light to the sides at a pretty steep angle and still need a proper external reflector to guid the light to where it is needed. If they are shaped internal reflectors, then they reflect the light in a much tighter pattern and an external reflector maynot be need, as the internal is doing the same thing as the external. albiet in a tigher final focus.

It would be interesting to measure the output pattern of some of these bulbs (Sanjay may have already).
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6686310#post6686310 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I have not looked at the reflectors inside of these bulbs, but they would be bound by the same laws of physics that a regular reflector would be. If the are FLAT then they scatter the light to the sides at a pretty steep angle and still need a proper external reflector to guid the light to where it is needed. If they are shaped internal reflectors, then they reflect the light in a much tighter pattern and an external reflector maynot be need, as the internal is doing the same thing as the external. albiet in a tigher final focus.

It would be interesting to measure the output pattern of some of these bulbs (Sanjay may have already).

Thanks for the reply. Yes it would be intersesting.

The ones I have seen have something like aluminum foil tape on the non output side, so it's shaped to the outside of the bulb, not flat. There might be an additional reflector inside the bulb itself...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6681854#post6681854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spslover123
But isnt there already a "perfect image" from straight from the bulb to the coral? Just sayin=)

Nope, think about how you dont see an image of the sun on the ground. But if you use a mirror reflecting the sun you get a very bright spot on the ground. The light naturally spreads out from a light source or bulb giving a somewhat even amount of light in all directions. A mirror reflects exactly what it sees, which is a very bright spot in the middle of a bulb.
 
You dont see an image of the sun on the ground, but if you look into you see the same thing that the mirror sees. Looking into the sun however does not change the amount of light that was striking you, so that analogy is a poor one.

A mirror simply takes light from one place and moves it to another. The spot on the ground is brighter because you are directing extra light to it. This is what all reflective surfaces do.

"mirrors" don't create hot spots, they simply don't spread the light over the space that you need it. Any poorly shaped reflector has the same effect.

Placing a "mirror" above the bulb will direct extra light downwards, but will also spill a lof of light that strikes it from the sides of the bulb.

Remember light does not "rise" and a bulb radiats light in all directions. Light bounces off of a mirror in the same direction it strikes it (for the most part).

You may want to get out a pen and paper and make a few drawings so that you can see what is going on. Draw a round circle (the end of the bulb) and draw a flat line a few inches above it (the mirro). Now draw light raws radiating from the bulb in all directions. Every line that strikes the mirror needs to have a reflection line that leaves the mirror from same point but opposite angle it struck the mirror at.

Bean
 
"You dont see an image of the sun on the ground, but if you look into you see the same thing that the mirror sees. Looking into the sun however does not change the amount of light that was striking you, so that analogy is a poor one."

That doesnt really make sense to me, even substituting the word that is missing with 'mirror' and 'sun'. I never said anything about looking into the sun, only reflecting it. If a mirror reflecting the sun is directed at you, and you are in the sun, it changes the amount of sunlight you get right? If you want to see an eclipse, you can use a mirror to bounce an image of the sun coming in your window onto your ceiling/wall. I did this last year. If you are in the light of a MH bulb, and then you use a mirror to reflect an image of the bulb on you as well, you are getting more light right? It should be an image of what the bulb looks like...white hot plasma inside a glass bulb, but only the bright plasma will make 'light image' (you wont see the bulb relfected). What you look at doesnt change how much light you receive, I agree. Mirrors wont create a hot spot, but they can reflect them, in a sense making more. I think we are just describing the same thing differently, because your right, they dont spread the light much. I just dont think the sun is a poor analogy because a MH bulb is like a tiny sun. The only difference is the sun is so far away so you get an image that is more true, where a bulb close to a mirror will spread the light more. I think I would just use the shiny side of aluminum foil for a cheap route, or go with a polished aluminum relfector for a little more money. I like the idea of just using white paint as mentioned before, it would be a soft light, but that would probably make most people feel like they didnt do enough. Good surface agitation would keep the hot spots for focusing in one spot too long as well.
 
Ok, lets say we have two reflectors of the same ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œshapeââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and with a identical ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œlight bulbââ"šÂ¬Ã‚.
reflector #1- is made of a reasonable polish aluminum
reflector #2- is made with mirror
If you put a light meter under them, would any of t hem show difference in light intensity?
 
sttyroyiii the point is that the problem is not the material used to reflect the light, it is the shape of the reflector.

The difference between a mirror, polished metal, aluminum foil, white paint and any other surface is what determines the amount of light reflected off of the surface, and the direction the light travels once it is reflected.

THE IMPORTANT POINT is the we need to put the light where we want it AFTER IT LEAVES THE BULB. Light leaves the bulb in all directions, but we need to re-route that light to our tanks surface. The more light you have to work with, the better off you are.

The major problem is bending or forming the "reflective material" into a shape that will transfer as much light as possible into the area we want. DIY is not the way to go here, and that was the point of most of this discussion.

If you take a 100% reflective surface and put it over one bulb, and a 50% reflective surface and put it over a second bulb, which bulb will put more light over your tank? You can't answer the question until you look at the shape of each reflector. the 100% material may put less light over the tank if the reflector is not as well designed as the one made out of 50% reflective material.

I surely hope that you understand this, as it has been the major point of this thread.

Light does not randomly disipate or "fall" into the tank. It has to be reflected there. A white painted hood will help compared to a black hood, but in no way are you getting anywhere near the light you would with an engineered reflector.

Bean
 
You need to understand that a mirror and a piece of poloshed metal ARE THE SAME THING.

olemos it simply depends on which material has a higher pure reflectivity and less loss due to refraction or scattering. The "mirror" will likely lose simply because the light has to travel through glass at least twice to get where it is going.

In reality each "ray" of light will have to travel through the glass of the mirror several times as it bounces around the reflector on it's way to the tank.

The "glass" keep the polished metal from dulling. However both the glass surface and a polished surface are subject to the same "dirt" and other debris.

We could talk a lot about how "dirt" effects front or back coated mirrors and the light that is projected from them... but it is pointless with regards to our use.

Bean
 
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