Aqua Forest Questions

[Fretfreak13]

Hey RC,

Later this summer I'll be setting up an SPS dominant 35g cube with a 10 gallon sump. I've ran KZ before, but I no longer have my reactor and while shopping for a new one someone recommended AF to me. I've read the guide and used the search function here to the best of my ability but I'm still extremely confused.

So many of the products seem optional based on different threads I've read. How can this be considered a "system" if no one is using the same products and is just mish mashing them? I'm so used to the Zeo way where if it isn't done exactly as described the whole thing implodes.

I'd like to know what exactly I need to buy, because even the guide makes the start up a bit confusing. They list products, and then there's a big fat "OR", then they list more products. What should I actually put in my shopping cart to start this system from scratch?

Also I have an entire bucket of Tropic Marin Pro salt. I assume using the actual AF salt is a must?

Thanks ahead of time for any responses. I was going to try on the actual AF forum, but the majority of it isn't in English.

 

[Potatohead]

It's pretty modular.

Component 1/2/3 is the pre-mixed dosing solution. It's a balling method so you add the same amounts of each. You can also make your own for less money using the basic chemicals and adding Components Strong to them.

The ABVE are coral foods and vitamins, just like RedSea Coral Colors or FM Color Elements or the KZ four pack thing. You can use them or not, typically only needed if nutrients are low.

The NP Pro and Pro BioS is their carbon dosing system, again you can use or not

They also have zeolites, their own carbon and gfo. Any and all of these can be used as required as well, depending on how low you want your nutrients.

 

[Fretfreak13]

Hey Potatohead, thanks for the response.

I guess where they've really lost me is just how non-nonchalant all of it seems while still having great results. I want to try it, but I just cant wrap my head around how it works like that when I'm so accustomed to Zeo. I wish their guide was a bit more detailed.

So to run the full system, I would need:

Probiotic Reef Salt
Bio S
Phosphate Minus
Carbon (I have a bunch, I assume I can just use my own?)
Pro Bio S
-NP Pro
Pro Bio F
Component 1
Component 2
Component 3


Since the rest is just food supplements I wouldn't use them until I had a tank full of critters that would actually use them up.

Why don't the zeolites need to be shaken with this method? The fact that carbon, zeo, and GFO can all be thrown in the same reactor is crazy to me as well since this is well known to be a big no-no with every other method in the hobby.

 

[Potatohead]

AF is really bad at letting people know how the system works. Their marketing and promo people are doing a good job but the "engineering talk" behind it is severely lacking. The only reason I know about it is because I have been following it all for about a year - I actually don't use it myself, I am still using Fauna Marin balling light.

Anyway, you are mostly correct, with a few exceptions.

- BioS is bacteria starter for new tanks, like Seachem stability or any other number of products. If your tank is cycled, you don't need it any longer.

- Pro Bio F is essentially NP Pro and ProBioS together in a powder form. It's basically carbon dosing method meant for smaller tanks. I have actually used this for about four months but ditched it for NoPox about six months ago. I find NoPox works far better. If you are going to use NP Pro and ProBioS, you don't need F.

You do not have to use the zeostones, and I agree it's interesting why they want you to run those stones in the same reactor as GFO and carbon. I believe they are using the stones as more of an ammonia removal tool as opposed to a bacteria growth tool. If you'll notice they have a product called LifeBioFil which is meant (like Seachem Matrix or Siporax or live rock) to be the "home" for bacteria, rather than the stones.

I will also mention I find their GFO to work, but doesn't have nearly as much capacity as Rowa. I also tried this for a while but switched back. Also yes you can use any carbon you want.

I would say the "Basic AF system" is;

Salt
Comp. 1/2/3
NP Pro/ProBioS

Most people add ABVE from there if they want to try it out.

 

[Alfrareef]

@potatohead: do you have a thread with details about your experience with FM that describe your approach and FM products that you use and results?

Sorry to rip this thread.

 

[Potatohead]

@potatohead: do you have a thread with details about your experience with FM that describe your approach and FM products that you use and results?

Sorry to rip this thread.

No thread to this point unfortunately. I am just using their balling salts and the trace elements that go with them. I have been happy and see no reason to change, and I prefer the balling light method to the classic balling which is the main reason I didn't try switching to AF a while back. I have been considering using the FM Color Elements as well but I am still using up some other products first, I will likely try the CE afterwards and see if there is any improvement.

 

[Fretfreak13]

I would say the "Basic AF system" is;

Salt
Comp. 1/2/3
NP Pro/ProBioS

Most people add ABVE from there if they want to try it out.

Thank you so much for sharing what you've learned. I will take all of it to heart and have adjusted my shopping list accordingly. I have quite a bit of time before I'll be jumping into this, so the research will continue. You rock!

Sorry to rip this thread.

No need to apologize. I'm interested too. :wave:

 

[bif24701]

It's pretty modular.

Component 1/2/3 is the pre-mixed dosing solution. It's a balling method so you add the same amounts of each. You can also make your own for less money using the basic chemicals and adding Components Strong to them.

The ABVE are coral foods and vitamins, just like RedSea Coral Colors or FM Color Elements or the KZ four pack thing. You can use them or not, typically only needed if nutrients are low.

The NP Pro and Pro BioS is their carbon dosing system, again you can use or not

They also have zeolites, their own carbon and gfo. Any and all of these can be used as required as well, depending on how low you want your nutrients.

So I can add Components Strong 1/2/3 to my 2 part ALK/Cal/Mag solutions?


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[bif24701]

AF is really bad at letting people know how the system works. Their marketing and promo people are doing a good job but the "engineering talk" behind it is severely lacking. The only reason I know about it is because I have been following it all for about a year - I actually don't use it myself, I am still using Fauna Marin balling light.

Anyway, you are mostly correct, with a few exceptions.

- BioS is bacteria starter for new tanks, like Seachem stability or any other number of products. If your tank is cycled, you don't need it any longer.

- Pro Bio F is essentially NP Pro and ProBioS together in a powder form. It's basically carbon dosing method meant for smaller tanks. I have actually used this for about four months but ditched it for NoPox about six months ago. I find NoPox works far better. If you are going to use NP Pro and ProBioS, you don't need F.

You do not have to use the zeostones, and I agree it's interesting why they want you to run those stones in the same reactor as GFO and carbon. I believe they are using the stones as more of an ammonia removal tool as opposed to a bacteria growth tool. If you'll notice they have a product called LifeBioFil which is meant (like Seachem Matrix or Siporax or live rock) to be the "home" for bacteria, rather than the stones.

I will also mention I find their GFO to work, but doesn't have nearly as much capacity as Rowa. I also tried this for a while but switched back. Also yes you can use any carbon you want.

I would say the "Basic AF system" is;

Salt
Comp. 1/2/3
NP Pro/ProBioS

Most people add ABVE from there if they want to try it out.

How is the NP Pro and ProBioS used? How do you implement them?


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[BryanS4]

Go another route please. Read up on AF. As someone mentioned earlier, great marketing, but that's about it.

It took me 5 plus months to recover from the "system".

 

[Geeray]

I have used Aquaforest Comp 1,2,3 for 6plus months with nothing else from their product line. The Comp 1,2,3 is like crack for corals!

 

[bif24701]

Go another route please. Read up on AF. As someone mentioned earlier, great marketing, but that's about it.

It took me 5 plus months to recover from the "system".

I don't really want to get into the whole system but I want to add the balling and reef salt.

Who has used the salt and what are your thoughts? Just the reef salt, non probiotics.


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[Fretfreak13]

Go another route please. Read up on AF. As someone mentioned earlier, great marketing, but that's about it.

It took me 5 plus months to recover from the "system".

Id love to hear more about what happened with yours. I can always just stick to my KZ if it came down to it. I've heard nothing but praise for AF so far, but its mainly been from a lot of reef noobs who pretty much just buy whatever their LFS guy tells them to. I know there are a lot more experienced people who use it, so I don't mean to offend anyone with that statement, but that's mainly what I've seen firsthand. What shocks me though is what these otherwise "noob" tanks look like while using this system. If I would have just seen photos of the tank and never talked to them, I wouldn't have even realized how new to the hobby they were and how little they understood about what was actually going on with their tanks.

Please share your negative experience! I really want to know all sides.

 

[Piper27]

Some people have complained that their salts parameters have been off, this is the only bad thing I have heard besides the very short one sentence replays to any detailed questions you may have to ask the AF team in Poland. I have had no issues with my salt, but I don't really test the salt before I use it. Makes me wonder so I will be testing next time just to see.
There have been a number of people that tried at who swears it "crashed" their tank. I have yet to see anyone show any evidence of at causing harm to their tank. I would bet if you don't understand how bacteria driven low nutrient systems work you might have an issue from misuse of some of the products, or from not having the tank set up correctly for the system. In the end every "system" is going to have people who say their tank didn't respond well to it, who's fault it is will be unknown until people document proof of "crashes" instead of just making a claim and trying to lead people away. And some tanks may not respond well to a system like this, it's not for everyone, but nothing in their product line should cause any crashes if used correctly.

I like using the AF stuff though it is expensive for larger tanks. I had to switch back to kalk and a calcium reactor but still use a number of their bottles. If your switching from zeo you will find some of the products are not as potent and the system is much more mild. And I shake my stones daily in a reactor. I don't think stones work effectively without doing this I can't believe they tell people not to shake them. Maybe it's part of the system being a milder option...

 

[kevlow]

I agree with the "mild" description from Piper's statement above.

I only use Comp 123 , NP Pro and Pro Bio S. I have found it easy and sufficient in itself. If I needed to use some of their other products I would consider it but truthfully, everything is going fine with just these products. If anything I wish that the Comp 123 was more potent and required less volume dosing.

A bacteria driven system has been a joy to run but the AF product does not produce the washed out pastel look. It does not require that I comply with a full product line or the system doesn't work. I merely changed my ESV 2 part, Trace Hard, Koral Color, and Iodine for Comp 123.

The addition of the carbon source and bacteria I see as enhancing the effects of having live rock and matrix in the tank and sump.

I still use my ESV salt which I am very happy with. Not changing salt was one less shock to my system when I started the Comp123.

The Comp 123 seems to keep everything in balance. When I stopped the Iodine I did not lose my pinks or any other color, for that matter. I like to keep things very simple with minimal dosing products. That way if something goes wrong there are less variables to consider.

I think of the AF products the way I use them as simple, mild, and stable.
This allows me to focus on more important issues like nutrient import and export. I think that the NP Pro and Pro Bio S helps me run a lot more food through the tank while still managing to keep low numbers.

 

[SchnitzelReef]

I tried all the AF products, even the salt. I stopped once the products ran out. They made no improvements in my tank. :/

 

[BryanS4]

Id love to hear more about what happened with yours. I can always just stick to my KZ if it came down to it. I've heard nothing but praise for AF so far, but its mainly been from a lot of reef noobs who pretty much just buy whatever their LFS guy tells them to. I know there are a lot more experienced people who use it, so I don't mean to offend anyone with that statement, but that's mainly what I've seen firsthand. What shocks me though is what these otherwise "noob" tanks look like while using this system. If I would have just seen photos of the tank and never talked to them, I wouldn't have even realized how new to the hobby they were and how little they understood about what was actually going on with their tanks.

Please share your negative experience! I really want to know all sides.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2572979

 

[Potatohead]

So I can add Components Strong 1/2/3 to my 2 part ALK/Cal/Mag solutions?


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I have researched this but I don't believe it's possible. One of the components goes into the AF mineral salts (component 3) and they put the mag in with the calcium in component 1. This makes me believe something in Component Strong is not compatible with the big three and if you mix it with two part it will precipitate out.

How is the NP Pro and ProBioS used? How do you implement them?


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They are simply dosed into the tank with droppers or through a dosing pump


In terms of how AF is being received, I am not sold on the system by any means but I definitely believe a lot of it is user error, but that's also AF's fault because their instructions are either terrible or non-existent. They should have had YouTube videos explaining everything in great detail like 18 months ago. I recall reading one thread on a different website some time ago that ended up going 4 - 5 pages, some guy was having issues with AF, SPS were crashing, people were asking about his lighting and flow and AF sucks and yada yada, but nobody picked up on the very first page he had mentioned he was making adjustments to all his dosing amounts on a daily basis - The system is designed to have all three components dosed the same. No exceptions. So AF got a bunch of bad press from some guy using the system incorrectly because it's way to bloody hard to figure out how to use the system correctly.

 

[bif24701]

I have researched this but I don't believe it's possible. One of the components goes into the AF mineral salts (component 3) and they put the mag in with the calcium in component 1. This makes me believe something in Component Strong is not compatible with the big three and if you mix it with two part it will precipitate out.



They are simply dosed into the tank with droppers or through a dosing pump


In terms of how AF is being received, I am not sold on the system by any means but I definitely believe a lot of it is user error, but that's also AF's fault because their instructions are either terrible or non-existent. They should have had YouTube videos explaining everything in great detail like 18 months ago. I recall reading one thread on a different website some time ago that ended up going 4 - 5 pages, some guy was having issues with AF, SPS were crashing, people were asking about his lighting and flow and AF sucks and yada yada, but nobody picked up on the very first page he had mentioned he was making adjustments to all his dosing amounts on a daily basis - The system is designed to have all three components dosed the same. No exceptions. So AF got a bunch of bad press from some guy using the system incorrectly because it's way to bloody hard to figure out how to use the system correctly.

Well that leaves me out then. I guess I can go with Fauna Marin balling. I suppose the salt is also meant to be in conjunction with all that other stuff too? Which worries me because I bought 25Kg of it. I've been using IO with ok results.


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[Potatohead]

Well that leaves me out then. I guess I can go with Fauna Marin balling. I suppose the salt is also meant to be in conjunction with all that other stuff too? Which worries me because I bought 25Kg of it. I've been using IO with ok results.


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No, the salt is just salt. The Reef Salt is fine, I've used it before, just test it after it is mixed to make sure it's not out of whack.