Aquarium gone bad

[tdmartin102]

I am having quite a problem with my aquarium and am looking for advice, and or, ideas.

It is been 30 years since I have had saltwater aquariums and I am a newbie to the current methods of keeping sw fish.

I set up a 50 gal FOWLR tank.

60 lbs of LR
1/2 inch of Argonite sand.
RODI for all my water source
Aqua Medic Mini Flotor Protein Skimmer (in tank airstone driven counter current skimmer)
Current USA Dual Satillite lights with Dual Daylight and Dual Actinic CF (192 watts) timed for 12 hours

1 have been doing 10% water change every week.

After about a month or so I added two percs and 5 hermit crabs, and after another couple of months I added a 6 line wrasse. Coral simply sprouted up on its own. I had a gorgeous deep green Ricordia, some red mushrooms here and there and two types of zooanthids have no clue what kind, but one was rather pretty. Also a fairly large leather coral of some sort (about 5 inches high).

I had no problems at all for about 18 months. Then everything went bad. The coral closed up, algae started to grow everywhere brown, green, hair algae, you name it. Suspecting a water quality issue I did two 50% water changes one week apart. It had no effect at all. Over the next month The Ricordia and mushrooms died off, and I lost both percs. Amazingly I also noticed a ton of bristle worms dying off! Things MUST be bad if those die. I purchased test kits and tested for Nitrate, Nitrite, phosphate, and PH. The Nitrate was about .2 everything else was quite good. I have been using a cheap swing arm type tester for Specific gravity. On a whim I tested the water with my 30 year old floating type hydrometers. The Instant Ocean tester was reading 1.024, but the hydrometers both read 1.020. A new and better thermometer read that my water temp is 82 degrees (way too hot!).

I desperately do not wish to lose anything else.

Here are my ideas.

1) I need to get the temp down. My only thought is to install a fan or two, but unfortunately because of the canopy I can't do that easily. I might be able to figure out a temporary (ugly) way...
2) I need better testing equipment for specific gravity. A refractometer is on its way.
3) I am thinking that even though the protein skimmer seems to be working okay, it may not be enough.
4) I am reducing the light down to 8 hours for now.
5) I need more water quality tests. Alkalinity... more??

Other thoughts:
I am thinking I should build a sump and place fans on that in an effort to cool down the water. I would need to build a new canopy to accommodate that. By placing my existing skimmer in the sump I can control the performance of the skimmer much better because I can maintain a constant water level in the sump. Finally, I think I need to start saving for a better skimmer.

I would really appreciate feedback about whether or not I am on the right path. Adding a sump is a very big task as I would need to put it in the room behind the tank and plumb through the wall. In the room behind the tank I would need to tear out an existing workbench and build a custom workbench to accommodate the sump. That will be a Big job, but if it would help I'll try it.

 

[ReefWidowed]

While you're working on your canopy/sump mod, you can use RODI ice cubes to help bring t he temp dpwn, you'll just have to pay attention to the temp change. We had a similar meltdown about a year or so ago, and still haven't figured out went wrong.....Good luck to you!!

 

[Dtip]

Could be that the temp started things dying, which may have spiked your ammonia here and there, killing more things, feeding the algae, and so on. 82 itself is more on the upper range of acceptable rather than in the deadly range (though it does stress the livestock at those levels) I'd guess that if temp was the culprit, you might have had higher spikes than even that.

I'd invest in a digital temperature thingie with an LED display, probe and an configurable temp alarm, so you can tell when and if you are getting heat spikes. They are around 20$, and can help you catch things like a heater on the fritz and other sudden but deadly problems.

Someone correct me if I have this wrong, but also keep in mind that SG readings are affected by temperature, with the hotter the water, the more salt needed to get the same reading, which can through expectations off if the temps spike. Will your refractometer be the self-compensating for temperature kind?

Also on the temp issue: the hotter the water, the more crucial it is to have good circulation for oxygenation purposes. Sumps are a huge win for oxygenation, as are out of tank fans, but what sorts of in tank water movement did you have? A long term oxygen deficit is almost as bad for fish as a short term ammonia spike.

Outside fans are a great idea for cooling. They are very cheap and easy to DIY, using a radioshack DC power cord and wired into computer fans. You can mount them almost anywhere near the lights or above the water to find benefit. Can you describe your canopy setup more? It's quite possible to simply carve out holes in the top or back for fans in most of them.

You can probably could have and can cut back on your light period so as to cut way back on your algal growth. You don't seem to have had any corals that required really intense light in any case, what with current lights being so powerful. (and I wish coral would sprout on its own in my tank instead of me having to pay for every last polyp!)

Is there no way to put a sump underneath the tank, or get a different stand to make that room? That might be a lot easier, I think, than tearing through a wall, and while vertical drops have their own problems, they are all pretty satisfactorily solvable. I wish I had a fish room myself, but my wife won't let me drill holes in either the floor or the walls.

A better skimmer is always a win, but without evidence of consistently high nitrate spikes or other problems, it's not necessarily a certain culprit in your problems. FOWLRs can and do generally run "dirtier" than reefs (from feeding mainly, and lack of CUC diversity), and your reading wasn't, at least when you took it, that high at all for a FOWLR (though, you really ended up with more of a mixed reef anyhow).

Finally, an unfortunate possibility is that an unknown pollutant or a buildup of some sort was the problem. We can't test for everything, and sometimes weird stuff makes its way unexpectedly into tanks (bad salt mix, local utilities dump ammonia into the local pipes without warning, etc.)

If you do get a sump, your range of options will go up by a lot. In addition to just plain more water to buffer any swings in parameters, you can far more easily get media reactors (very cheap to DIY in some cases) going, run carbon and polyfilters and so much more.

 

[tdmartin102]

Thanks for the posts.

I never thought of RODI ice!! It may be a quick fix, especially if I notice a spike.

Dtip,

I thought of the digital thermometer, there are many that record max/min temperatures and that should give me an idea if I am getting spikes now an then. I am thinking the temp is farily constant as I have never seen it change since I have noticed the high temp, but you never know. I would just feel a lot better if I could get it down to 78 or so.

The Refractometer I bought is supposed to be the self compensating type. I am really looking forward to getting my hands on that. It was fairly cheap at only $50 (including shipping) but the reviews were all extremely good, so I have high confidence that it will do the trick. Certainly better than what I have now.

Water movement is a hang one Rio 1400 which I think is about 400 gph. I have a fan nose on it but I have never been happy with it. Too much flow, and I am not getting even flow either. I also have a hang on external power filter which I am using for flow only (no filter material) I could probably do much better with two smaller units, or a nice return system from the sump.

The problem I have with the canopy is that I don't really have one. I am simply using the stock glass top with my light sitting on top. This leaves VERY little room for any type of fan. I removed the glass lid once before but had problems with spray and the light. What I think I need is to build a canopy and rase the light if I do that I should have no problem with getting a fan in there.

I can't put the sump underneath. I build a custom stand for the tank and underneath is my old freshwater tank. This is a 20 gallon tank and I KNOW it would be perfect for a sump, but it is a DISPLAY tank and I all the fish in there are 10 or more years old so I am quite attached to them. So there is no way I will ditch that tank. Plus I love my custom stand. I hear you though.

The room behind the tank is a utility room and so is available. I built all the rooms anyway, so I don't feel bad about modifying them a bit. I thought I was done with my sawzall though

Thanks for all the thoughts. I do like the idea of a sump. It may not solve my problem but just moving the skimmer out of the tank alone is a big deal esthetically, and like you say, it gives you a ton of options.

I can not express how heartbroken I was when I had to remove the Ricordia. I was quite proud of that and most of my friends would comment on it. I miss that more than the percs which was also a nasty blow.

 

[Dtip]

The alarm function on those things has been a great boon to me: I once forgot that I hadn't plugged my heater back in after service, and it warned me long before the temps got down anywhere near the danger zone.

Just to make sure: you have a glass top completely or almost completely covering the top of the tank? That alone could have caused issues with ph and oxygenation, especially in the hotter months. Freshwater tanks get on with a cover ok because they usually have air pumps pumping 02 in. But a mixed reef tank, which rarely if ever use air pumps these days, can use up oxygen fast, and without good surface ventilation, CO2 can build up and change the ph, especially when the tank heats up. Again, not a certain culprit, but it could have contributed to other problems. A tank cover will also trap heat, of course.

If you can get longer (replacement) legs for your lights, you might be able to just have it sit on the tank itself and remove the top until you get a more aethetically pleasing canopy. You should be able to get the flow in the tank so that it agitates the surface without breaking it or splashing up. My 55gal is set up like this, with no top at all (might put in eggcrate at some point), my lights (same ones as yours, I think, or at least the same brand and shape) sitting on their stock legs, and my canopy is purely aesthetic, touching nothing. I never get any splashes onto the light except for when I restart my return pump and it bubbles up a little. I have two koralias and a mag pump in there for flow too. Of course, a sump helps to get this sort of setup working smootly, because of it keeping the water level rock-solid steady.

Your backroom sump will definately be better than a under tank one for sure. Way easier to make it all quiet, you don't need as powerful a return pump to get the same gph: I really wish that my kitchen wasn't on the other side of my tank.

Sorry to hear about the rics and the fish again.

 

[tdmartin102]

The glass top covers most of the top. I made a cutout for the skimmer. I think you may be right about the top contributing to the heat problem and I never new it could effect water chemistry.

I'll take it off and see what happens. Maybe I can attach a fan temporaily until I can build a canopy to make it all pretty. The tank is a bowfront so building a canopy is a bit trciky. A good weekend project.

 

[Dtip]

Open top tanks are pretty popular with reef tanks these days. The only thing to really worry about is fish that jump like gobies and blennies in particular. The best solutions to prevent that that I know, which mostly preserve open airflow while blocking fish in, are the use of eggcrate (i.e. plastic lighting diffuser from home depot, cut to size) as a cover, or a canopy/other material (some people use non-tangling netting pulled taught used to enclose things that encloses the four sides so that they'd just hit the lights or sides and bound back into the water. I've never had a sixline, so I don't know how jumpy they are.

A lot of people have never had a fish try to jump, and they tend to do it more when they are stressed or startled. My perc has never tried to jump out of my top that I know of, though my canopy is open in the back.

 

[vivek]

i do not know the fuss over a temp of 82. Nothing bad happens at 82. my tank hits that temp everyday. i think water quality is your big issue. and 50% water changes is the quickest way to kill things in any tank. bad water quality is bad and you can make things worse by trying to suddenly improve things. lack of proper testing and stability got you where you are now. Yes a sump and a good skimmer would be a good investment. But most importantly regular husbandry and testing is a good habit to cultivate. Sorry to hear your loss. It is very heartbreaking but it has happened to all of us at some point.

 

[fambrough]

I'm with vivek on this one. 82 degrees should not be problematic, although perhaps not ideal. Sounds like a chemistry issue, possibly low alk?

Also, I don't believe that within the ranges we work, temperature has any effect of consequence on specific gravity. I could be wrong about that. A scientist once told me this, but I've not followed up on it.

Ditching that glass tops sounds like a first, good step. Lots to work on from there. It's great you're going to iupdate your reef keeping practices. Just trying to eliminate other possibilities: it's probably not the case, but could there have been some recent contamination?

Best of luck. You've come to the right place.

 

[tdmartin102]

All excellent points, and its why I posted. Since I removed the glass top the temperature dropped to 79, so I feel comfortable at the moment. You are probably all correct about 82 not being a problem but it makes me nervous that I don't have any control on it.

I think I will build a thermostatically controlled fan. I'll just make a simple circuit with a probe and relay. I'll purchase some more test kits Alk being tops on my list. I feel more and more that the sump may or may not solve anything but will certainly help in overall stability. I keep on thinking that the die off of bristle worms that I noted may indicate some sort of contamination. If it IS contimination would time alone (with my 10% changes) dissipate the problem?

 

[maggie]

ground rod

ground rod

do you have a ground rod in the water? you might take a volt meter and check the water for electric current. to much current will kill off bristle worms and other things.

 

[Dtip]

Yeah like I said: if temp was an issue, its because it stayed at 82 most of the time but then spiked up much higher when you weren't watching.

If it is contamination of some sort (probably unlikely unless its copper imho) there are just too many variations on what to know what the best way to deal with it are unless you know what it is. Water changes can reduce some contaminants of course, but not all. I doubt that's your problem in any case though.

And it's a really good point about the danger of massive water changes: a bigger water change can indeed dilute pollution, but it's also more and more stressful the bigger it gets, particularly if the temperature, salinity, or other parameters don't match up between the tank and the new water.

 

[tdmartin102]

Wow!~ I never ever thought of electrical current in the water. I tested it as soon as I saw your post. 30 volts AC to ground!!!! I fried my fish!!

Okay, so that means probably exposed wires in the tank. So I have a few questions here.

1) exposed wires means copper wires, metal copper desolves slowly in SW but it certainly does, so I most likley have copper in the tank. I guess I will need a test kit for that, but??? !! how do I get rid of copper that stuff is extremely toxic.

2) How exactly do you ground a salt water tank. what to you use for a ground rod??

3) The biggest suspect here is the water pump. easy to test I just need to unplug it.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

 

[Bowman]

Anything electrical ( ie heaters powerheads pumps) in the water can and does cause leakage current. It is usally very easy to identify which device is causing the problem, Simply unplug the device your testing and the remove it from the water and then remeasure your AC voltage to ground and see if that is the device causing the issue. Continue with each device in your tank untill you find the problem. A aquatic ground probe can help but you really want to find the source and elimante it and not rely on the ground probe. Also good practice is to have your fish tank powered by a GFI which protects you from getting electrocuted or shocked. HTH

 

[tdmartin102]

This is more tricky than I thought.

It seems that the voltage is affected by anything powered or even close to the tank. I suppose since the water is an excellent conductor and there are magnetic feilds and moving currents in and around the water, the electical capacitience of the water is creating a electrical potential simply because it exists. There does not have to be any actual contact between the water and power.

I can change the potential by removing devices somewhat, but it is always there. The current produced by this potential is a different story. By far the biggest difference is produced by the florecent lights. The light fixture stands on top the the tank with plastic feet so there is no conductor at all between it and the tank. Even if I lift the light off and suspend it in air I get the same voltage. The interesting thing is that I can remove the light and still get a voltage (about 10 volts) But I can measure only a very small current 0.2 mA. With the lights on I measure 20 volts with no other devices in the water and about 30 with everything in and on. With the lights on I measure about 30 mA. All quite interesting but bottom line is it does not look like there is any real leakage, only induction. Since fish are lousy conductors and SW is excellent, it is likely even with the inducted current that very little current would flow through an organizim because the current would go through the better conductor first.

Perhaps a aquatic ground will help, but since nothing seems to be broken or leaking, and I have not changed equipment since I set up the tank I am thinking that the voltage is a red herring.

It would be interesting to see other people test their tanks, especially those with florecent fixtures, MH bulbs would not produce that effect I would not think.

I found an excellent article on all this
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

You would think I would have figured this out as I have a degree in Electrical Eng. But that was years ago, it all fades you know....

 

[Rhodophyta]

If you can't fit a muffin fan in the hood somehow, you can pump air in with an air pump and aquarium tubing. Don't submerge the tube, just aim it at the water surface to create evaporation and cooling.

 

[Dtip]

I don't know much about it, but it was my understanding that you'd measure "eddy current" in any body of moving water, especially with other electrical devices nearby (and not even necessarily in the water). I'm not sure whether or not the readings you are getting are any reason for concern or not.