Aquarium reform group [Saia] emerges in Europe

[49.35 North]

Sorry, somehow I omitted the first and most important part of their reply:

WetWebMedia is listed as a "supporter and partner" on the the website of
SAIA.

"Mmm, this is news to me. I do know Christiane Schmidt (cc'd above) and
don't know if Tim is still involved..."

It's been suggested in one of the forums that you don't, in fact,
support them. Could you clarify?

"Don't know what exactly constitutes "support"... I/we are not
"card-carrying members", but I've read over, tried to help with some of
their written tenets, and I do believe (as w/ MAC before them) in the basic
thrusts of what the organization is trying to accomplish"

And at the risk of opening up a huge can of worms, could you comment on
the role of industry bodies like SAIA in promoting sustainability in the
aquarium trade?

"I am (always) hopeful that such NGOs can/will add to the purposes of
diffusing useful information and practices of conservation of resources.
Sorry to be so vague, but I just don't know (that) much re what SAIA has
accomplished thus far."

 

[GreshamH]

Here's my message to them and their response:

<Mmm, this is news to me. I do know Christiane Schmidt (cc'd above) and
don't know if Tim is still involved...>


Using a name and logo without permission is pretty damaging to their credibility - though, like Mr Fenner, I continue to believe in what they're trying to accomplish and I continue to think there's a need for an industry or industry/consumer group to promote sustainability in the aquarium trade.

FAIL....Wow you so miss read what I wrote... I did NOT suggest he was not a supporter, I suggested asking him rather then trusting a website.

Originally Posted by GreshamH
Just because some one is listed as a "sponsor" or "Supporter" on a website doesn't make it the truth. Rather then trusting them, why not ask Mr Fenner what he feels about it, or any of the other supporters and sponsors

 

[cortez marine]

eco-credibility

eco-credibility

If its wrong to find people guilty by association it seems also wrong to assume credibility by association .
Many people easily support the general, ideals and stated principles of a group. War on poverty, education, clean air, world peace....paperwork simplification .....whats not to like?
These things are easy to find allies for . Credible people may well lend their name and endorsement based on the assumption that the stated principals are lived up to.

Knee jerk greenies and non industry players supported MAC in the beginning to reap the rewards of painless, deed free brownie points.
No wholesalers were for it early on. ...ie. the ones who would actually have to implement the impossible new protocols, policies, procedures, the 1 % DOA mandate, the seperate facilities [ only the rich] and forests of paperwork.

Then, when they sold out...when they failed...the wholesalers signed on. Why, cause its painless to join something that asks nothing and confers eco-credibility by association.
[ especially when re-certification was granted for free to disillusioned members ]
Steve

 

[49.35 North]

FAIL....Wow you so miss read what I wrote... I did NOT suggest he was not a supporter, I suggested asking him rather then trusting a website.

Sorry, my bad. I read more into your comment than you intended.

 

[reefsurfing]

Cortez makes some extremely valid points and I think is more "in tune" with the greater issue here. Fishing regulation is a fad that has been debunked and even IF they were initially created, maybe, with good intention they have no potency or diligence beyond being short-sighted to the industry as a whole. There is no world governing agency that has power to effectively create change on the kind of scale needed to implement these thought up changes. However, personally, I do enjoy these more in depth debates but I think only change will come through the new Gov't mentioned in revelation and that why I spend my time in the ministry. That being said I always love talking and exchanging ideas on topics such as these since they spring from an innate love for creation and care for the world that has been provided for us.

As for Cortezs' comments coming off as negative; I dont so much agree with that as I feel the situation is the negative and he is merely drawing attention to this fact.

As for Aquaknights comment about consumer based innovation in this industry; I dont see change coming from that angle as it would just create another opportunity for the industry to pretend to change. The fact is that most companies or people that are involved in this trade have a bootom line to watch and some changes aren't good for that bottom line so you will see more lip service rather than "feet moving" and I say that in reference to those feet moving towards change.

It's the LOVE of money (that bottom line) that is the root of all evil.....

 

[cortez marine]

49.35 North...
Why is a NGO even needed?
Marcos is long gone and Malcolm Sarmiento is the head of the Philippine bureau of fisheries.
He can cancel every export permit tomorrow in Manila and make conversion to nets a condition for continued commerce.
Sarmiento can fix this if he wanted to and showed a liitle more courage.

Filipinos can take care of themselves and their own reefs without silly foreigners pretending to know whats needed and taking over the work that Filipinos should be doing.
Steve

 

[49.35 North]

49.35 North...
Why is a NGO even needed?
Marcos is long gone and Malcolm Sarmiento is the head of the Philippine bureau of fisheries.
He can cancel every export permit tomorrow in Manila and make conversion to nets a condition for continued commerce.
Sarmiento can fix this if he wanted to and showed a liitle more courage.
Steve

As I, and the organization I work for, are guests in the Philippines, I think I'll stay away from local politics. I don't understand it anyway.

I'm not sure NGOs are necessary, but the good ones - maybe 10 per cent of the total, in my experience - can be helpful in educating the public, advocating good policy, and providing useful technical knowledge to policy makers and politicians. Oxfam, for example, played a key role in getting the debt of the poorest developing countries canceled, which I don't think would have happened without them.

I think we agree that reefs are stressed for a variety of reasons and that some players in the marine aquarium industry are contributing to that stress - though the damage caused by the aquarium trade is surely small compared to ocean acidification, climate change and over-fishing.

We disagree on whether an industry or industry/consumer group can help change the situation. You have the advantage of having lived through MAC. I have the advantage of not having been disillusioned by living through MAC.

Do you really not see any role for an organization of reefers concerned about the state of the world's reefs and the environmental footprint of the hobby?

 

[cortez marine]

Do you really not see any role for an organization of reefers concerned about the state of the world's reefs and the environmental footprint of the hobby?

The work need to be done should have real aquarium people on board.
This is a novel idea and one that has yet to happen.

And that already helps explain the past 20 years of not getting it done right.


Creating a workable plan, Writing grant proposals, securing the funding, organizing the right team, transferring to the site and implementing it all in hands on fashion is the challenge.

Lacking the ability to do this well....the past groups have spent the time and money and moved on.

The fictional, idealized group of reefers you suggest sounds great.
The sacrifice and passion to put this together is ...where? Who? When?

The idealistic musing is all fine and good.
The other 99.999% would need to begin.
You may already have an inkling of the time and effort required to run a local reef club....well, times it X 100.

I have done this before and that was when I wasn't married w/ children and could work for free and live in Philippine villages for a year at a time living among and training divers.

If any org of actual aquarium savy people gets real....Count me in.
Steve

 

[49.35 North]

The work need to be done should have real aquarium people on board.

The fictional, idealized group of reefers you suggest sounds great.
The sacrifice and passion to put this together is ...where? Who? When?

If any org of actual aquarium savy people gets real....Count me in.
Steve

I thought you were going to do it. Did I misunderstand?

BTW, EthicalReefer.org is available ...

 

[cortez marine]

selling out

selling out

I have already trained hundreds of cyanide fisherman and converted them to netsmanship. From 1981-1991 I trained cyanide fishers in the Philippines.
Since then, they trained their sons to collect with nets too.
Many also found work in Belize, Saudi, Egypt, Vanuatu, Tonga, Solomon Islands, Palau and most recently, Papua New Guinea.
Foe the 20 odd years they stopped using cyanide, I imagine tens of thousands of corals were spared.
Perhaps the geometry is off and hundreds of thousands of corals were spared.

Then came the era of mega corporate foundation funding and money seeking professional eco-orgs.
These guys were clueless and allergic to the field.
Their conversion rate was dismal and even drove collectors back to cyanide as their trainings were so non productive.
I resigned from several of these groups in protest over the re-direction of the budgets to the cities instead of the field and the selling out of the reform movement.

There remain 1,000 or so cyanide fishers in the Philippines and several thousand in Indonesia.
Failing to get it right was treason....and continued the cyanide trade and millions of corals that could have been saved were not.
Alas, we could have finished the job....
Hence my being upset with the hijacking of the original reform movement.
Steve

 

[49.35 North]

I have already trained hundreds of cyanide fisherman and converted them to netsmanship. Steve

Steve, I know a little of the history and I know you paid your dues a long time ago. The line about you doing the work was a lame attempt at a joke.

I think ReefPatriot.org is still available ...

 

[49.35 North]

The Indonesian NGO is fibbin and not training collectors.

Well, short of going to the sites and seeing for ourselves, I don't know how we can be sure about this. I gather (from google) that the World Bank is financing some of the work. A mid-term review has been done and although it isn't on the WB website I might be able to find a copy.

You will, however, be please (I think) to see that one objective of the WB project is to "empower all coastal communities and institutions throughout program districts, to sustainably co-manage coral reefs, and associated ecosystems, and increase incomes, which will in turn, enhance community welfare. Its subcomponents comprise training in sustainable fishing, marketing practices, study tours, technical assistance, community-based management practices, marine conservation management ..."

Here's what the Indonesian NGO says they have done:

In south Sumatra, Lampung, we trained aquarium fishermen and coral collectors of the Pahawang Village. Pasawaran District. Training program included assistance in the development of sustainable marine aquarium fisheries management in the area, and coral reef rehabilitation through the installation of artificial reef structures at the pilot sites. We also facilitated the development of the trade chains with exporters who have adopted "˜best practices' in aquarium trade. This project was funded by GEF, Small Grant Program, from 1 October 2008 to 30 November 2009

In Pangkajene Kepulauan in south Sulawesi, we trained aquarium fishermen from 3 islands, Balanglompo, Badi and Sarappo Keke. This project was funded by the Ministry of Marine Affairs and Fisheries under the World Bank Coremap II.

In Buleleng, North Bali, being based in Bali, one of the main trade hubs for the marine aquarium trade, we assisted the Buleleng district government to implement sustainable fisheries practices for the marine aquarium trade. We trained fishermen in Patas, Gerokgak district, not only in best practices in collecting but also to rehabilitate damaged reefs in the areas. The aquarium fishermen from Patas, Singaraja, Tejakula, Les and Penuktukan, initiated and participated in the reef rehabilitation programs.

From October 2009, we trained 20 aquarium fishermen in Banggai Islands, central Sulawesi to develop conservation and sustainable use of the Banggai Cardinal fish (BCF) for marine aquarium trade. This project is funded by Yayasan Kehati. In two weeks time, we plan to conduct training for 20 more fishermen of the Banggai Islands archipelago.

Two of our trainers are marine aquarium fishermen from Les village, North Bali. [One of the them] is a professional marine aquarium collector. He has been a LINI's trainer and has trained over 200 fellow collectors to use non-destructive fishing techniques throughout archipelago. [Another] comes from the same village as Made. He used to be a marine ornamental fisherman group leader from Les village. Nengah is LINI's Banggai field coordinator, and currently based in Bone baru Banggai Island. Nengah assists the fishermen groups in Banggai Archipelago to develop fisheries management plan, establishment of No-take zone and helps to create a responsible sustainable marine aquarium trade of Banggai cardinalfish.

Seems pretty credible to me.

 

[cortez marine]

Nengah is LINI’s Banggai field coordinator, and currently based in Bone baru Banggai Island. Nengah assists the fishermen groups in Banggai Archipelago to develop fisheries management plan, establishment of No-take zone and helps to create a responsible sustainable marine aquarium trade of Banggai cardinalfish.

You said;
"Seems pretty credible to me...."

I trained Nengah and his crew in Les Village in 2004....
With the fall of MAC, ex MAC Indo director, Gyatri Lilli formed Lini.
She used to work with cyanide fishers without converting them year after year.
Since then she has been headhunting already trained divers for her own to forge a body of achievment and has apparently suceeded.
At least she recognized talent and has employed Nengah which is good news.

Steve

 

[cortez marine]

The Village of Les, Bali became the center of attention about 10 years ago for NGO activity when the village decide to go all net caught and disdain the use of cyanide.
But...they didn't have the right netting material or know-how.

It was my privilege at the request of Telapak to be brought in to train the divers to use barrier nets and handnets,
I also persuaded my board of directors at AMDA [American Marinelife Deallers Association] to donate $ 1,000.00 worth of barrier netting to the cause.

Then, with a honey pot of newly graduated net collectors, others noticed and tried to poach them from Telapak.
The village has remained net caught ever since while others claimed it, Les Village does it.
Steve




http://www.scribd.com/doc/3617308/Deadly-Spray

 

[49.35 North]

Since then she has been headhunting already trained divers for her own to forge a body of achievment and has apparently suceeded.
At least she recognized talent and has employed Nengah which is good news.

Steve

If LINI is "fibbing" about training collectors, why would they want to headhunt trainers?

 

[cortez marine]

What year is this?

If they can hold on to good trainers like Nengah, then they can finally train some cyanide fishers.

They never trained anyone and were always looking to annex the trainees of others....With the recent withdrawal of Telepak from the scene, Nengahs achievements can now be taken over and he can be employed to continue training.
I grant you that Lini was able enough to hang around until he became available...and recognize talent.

After all these years....will they finally get it right?
It bears watching but do not make the mistake of reading an organizations reports on itself as gospel.
Steve

 

[49.35 North]

What year is this?

They never trained anyone and were always looking to annex the trainees of others....

After all these years....will they finally get it right?
Steve

Is there any evidence that would convince you they have already trained collectors?

 

[cortez marine]

lots of divers already trained in Bali

lots of divers already trained in Bali

There is a history of net training attention in Bali.
Its not unlikely that finding divers already trained...one can simply annex them.
[See below]
However, if there are still more being actually trained lately...fine. The more the merrier.
But, there are guys that have been using nets there now for 6 years.
Steve




LES VILLAGE... NETCAUGHT CO-OPERATIVE [ from RDO archives]
by cortez marine » 22 Feb 2006 08:21

THE MARINE ORNAMENTALS CONFERENCE saw Ruwindrijarto and Arsonetri of the Les Village netcaught co-operative present their work and it was clearly the main event and good news in the perrenial reform drama.
Les has led the way on their own and without much foreign help.
They have converted a few hundred cyanide fishers and have stuck with net catching only for 5 years now.
They have an uncompromising policy of not allowing any cyanide fish or fisherman into their ranks.
Indonesia/Bali is in fact flooded with a tradition of cyanide fishing and is now the cyanide fishing center of the world....and dirtier then the Philippines.
Everyones favorite exporters from Bali carry cyanide fish routinely and yet have hardly cared to pressure for change as they get nice corals from the same outfits.
When reefers get the small corals they love they tend to forget about coral killing poisons that ruin mother colonies [ as they call them] and mature coral stands.

When they revealed as a matter of fact that they were the only 100% netcaught operation in Bali [ true] there were murmurs in the crowd.
They have nets provided by AMDA and EASi of the Philippines and they have had the training and experience to do the job. They are now moving forward into marketing their fish.
The director of Les...Ruwi also said that they were clearly and steadfastly a non MAC enterprise. They have seen MAC from their perspective and found it irrelevant to their mission. [MAC in Bali however, wants their divers badly and there is a constant stress about this.]
They are looking for buyers of their all netcaught product and have had a hard time doing so as no wholesalers have been interested so far except for Aquatic Specialties in the SF Bay area.

________________________________________________________________

Indonesia Update: [ from MAC Report]
"South-South" Capacity Building: Indonesia Collectors Learn Responsible Collecting Techniques from Skilled Philippines' Fisherman
Marine ornamental harvesting in Pulau Seribu, Indonesia started around 1960, with the majority of collectors coming from Panggang Island. Many collectors still only use masks, without snorkels or fins. Around 1970, cyanide was unfortunately introduced to the area by others in the marine aquarium industry.
As a result of recently increased enforcement of laws prohibiting cyanide use, and the rapidly rising price of cyanide, collectors and suppliers have committed to alternative techniques for collecting fish. In July 2004, a marine ornamental collectors' group PERNITAS (Perhimpunan Nelayan Ikan Hias dan Karang Hias), was formed in Pulau Panggang. MAC trainers and TERANGI (Indonesia Coral Reef Foundation), a local reef conservation and management organization, have trained the collectors in best practices for collecting and handling to ensure that the fishery is sustainable. However, more specialized training was needed for responsible collecting of some species.
In August 2006, the PERNITAS collectors group received training from Regenito Gador, a Filipino trainer, on techniques for collecting difficult species, such as the Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) and Comet or Marine Betta (Calloplesiops altivelis). The collectors were taught how to make collecting equipment, such as push nets and traps and were shown better post-harvest handling and holding techniques. Regenito was accompanied by Made Partiana: an Indonesian trainer from Les Village in Bali, who also learned the collecting techniques. After the Pulau Seribu efforts, both trainers travelled to Bali, where they trained collectors from Sumber Kima and Pejarakan in the use of the responsible methods. This peer-to-peer training by Made Partiana will continue in other Indonesia villages, where more collectors are interested in learning these techniques.
Jakarta District Government Supports Collectors Training in Pulau Seribu
Ensuring Indonesia collectors use best practices in collecting and post harvest handling to achieve sustainable fisheries has become a priority for some district governments where marine ornamentals are collected. This includes Pulau Seribu, Jakarta Bay, where the District Head fully supports the implementation of sustainable practices to achieve MAC Certification. In September 2006, the Pulau Seribu District government supported the training for ornamental fish collectors from Pulau Panggang provided by MAC and others.
The local marine ornamental collectors and suppliers association (PERNITAS) received nets and basic snorkeling gear for its members. Seventy (70) collectors attended the training which addressed, among other things, post harvest methods, dive health and safety, sustainable fishing practices, reef conservation and management and simple business skills.

 

[PeterIMA]

Net collecting

Net collecting

Response to Cortez Marine,
I must state that I agree with Steve Robinson. I helped to found the International Marinelife Alliance (IMA) with Dr. Vaughan Pratt and Steve Robinson in 1985. I helped to set up the Netsman Project between the Haribon Foudation and IMA Canada in 1989. I watched IMA's programs including net training and cyanide detection testing (CDT) get highjacked by the Marine Aquarium Council (MAC). The MAC destroyed the Net-Caught movement. I am fed-up with the Big NGOs (BINGOs) that have milked these issues to the detriment of the reefs, the fish collectors, resident NGOs, the aquarium hobbyists, and the aquarium trade. I agree that net-training can work. Many of the collectors trained by Steve Robinson and by Ferdinand Cruz still are using nets. It is hard to say the same thing for collectors trained by the MAC or by LINI.

Peter Rubec