Are Deep Sand Beds, DSBs, dangerous to use in a marine aquarium?

[Reefin' Dude]

another option for tank bottoms for those that want the "benefits" of sand and the "benefits" of BB. create a solid plateau in the tank that is as tall as the sand is deep you would like to keep. make it out of whatever. concrete, PVC, Acrylic, Epoxy, whatever. this plateau needs to be just as large as the area needed to support the LR structure. this will work as your BB area for the LR. keeping the need to try and get behind there to siphon out the substrate in these areas which accumulate the most detritus. adding a CLS output nozzle or two facing downward towards the plateau will push any detritus produced by the LR out into the water column. the rest of the bottom of the tank is filled with the substrate of choice. without the LR in contact with the substrate it will "work" as well as it can and be easy to remove/siphon/replaced when needed.

there are a lot of different options out there on how to implement the knowledge we have. we just have to think outside the box sometimes.

G~

 

[heritage]

another option for tank bottoms for those that want the "benefits" of sand and the "benefits" of BB. create a solid plateau in the tank that is as tall as the sand is deep you would like to keep. make it out of whatever. concrete, PVC, Acrylic, Epoxy, whatever. this plateau needs to be just as large as the area needed to support the LR structure. this will work as your BB area for the LR. keeping the need to try and get behind there to siphon out the substrate in these areas which accumulate the most detritus. adding a CLS output nozzle or two facing downward towards the plateau will push any detritus produced by the LR out into the water column. the rest of the bottom of the tank is filled with the substrate of choice. without the LR in contact with the substrate it will "work" as well as it can and be easy to remove/siphon/replaced when needed.

there are a lot of different options out there on how to implement the knowledge we have. we just have to think outside the box sometimes.

G~

I was wondering when you would pop in.

 

[MrIcky]

it doesn't matter whether the tank is BB, DSB, or SSB. the only thing that matters is that the toilet is flushed on a regular basis.

it all boils down to how long you want to keep poo as a pet.

G~

So to boil it all down for me, has this basically become the closest thing to a consensus? I don't mind 'doing my time' with tank maintenance, but I prefer a dsb for various reasons.

 

[Reefin' Dude]

keeping corals, fish, whatever is no different than keeping other organisms. in order to provide a healthy environment waste needs to be removed from their living area. no different than saying, from now on, you are not allowed to flush the toilets in your house. how long do you think that would be a healthy environment? all organisms produce poo of some kind. the exports must equal the imports.

G~

 

[gregrocks79]

I think I read that book, everybody poops!!! Haha

 

[billsreef]

Yup, whatever system you use you need to flush and process the poop

A healthy DSB, i.e one with plenty of critters for bioturbation of the sediment to process the poop, good internal tank circulation and the occasional partial human vacuuming of portions of the sand bed for the "flushing", and the DSB tank will do quite well

 

[Nammy]

I'll keep it in my sump, away from the first chamber

 

[ATLL765]

I'm a relative noob with all this, but I read a TON of stuff on DSBs recently trying to get a picture or whether it works, doesn't the risks, benefits, etc.

What I've gathered is that no matter what you do crap will sink into the sand bed.

The detritus and phosphate will fill the sand bed to the point where the phosphate will leach out and possible hydrogen sulfide that is created.

To counter-act this, one might agitate the top of the bet manually and with sand sifting critters, which will free some of the buildup(at least in the top layer) and thus allow for some sort of cleaning and then subsequent re-gaining of unwanted buildup of phosphate and toxic matter.

However, it would seem that it's very difficult to have this sand bed be truly self sustaining and as such will become an issue at some point, though how long seems to be the biggest point of contention.

That all makes enough sense to me.

Now for my question: If one were to keep a remote dsb, could you not just change it out every couple years to keep it "fresh" so to speak and avoid the issues with build up in the sand bed?

It seems if you have it plumbed in outside the display, this is as easy as closing off a valve, removing the bucket/brute container, rinse and repeat(not literally, figuratively).

Am I missing something or would this be a feasible way to run a dsb?

Sorry if this has been covered, but I've read like 200 pages of different threads on this stuff in the past few days and my mind is a bit fried(understatement). lol.

 

[jda]

Your 200 pages should have broken down like into this:

Nothing is self sustaining forever
The sand needs to be cleaned or replaced slowly over time - too fast (or all at once) and it will need to reestablish... too slow and you can have some issues.
It doesn't matter if it is in the tank or remote.

 

[gregrocks79]

Ever look at detritus under a scope?? Some cool stuff in there. IMO it's more beneficial to have some in there. Maybe a large cleaning everyone few months er so

 

[jeffkeith_us]

I built a RDSB into my prototype system that my company now builds and that was 4 years ago and it's still running. My kids will not let me do anything with that thing because they love it so much. In the aquarium prime we use black calcite of about 2mm to 5mm so that the storm setting can use under gravel filters and power heads to clean things up a bit. In the sea here the sand gets removed and replaced every now and again. That's the problem with DSB's in reef aquaria, the sand bed is static.

 

[Nammy]

I Never cleaned the detritus in any of my tanks.

 

[Psyops]

I wonder how people will respond to this post.

5 yrs ago I started a 29 gallon hex tank (I had it lying around) with a variable grain sand DSB to about 6 inches deep. Connected to my system and with various flow rates found out that 500 gph worked the best for my system. Due to my lack of knowledge at the time, I added various types of macroalgae and seahorses.

5 yrs later, two of those seahorses are still alive and I have to dump out a gallon bucket full of algae every two weeks. My DSB looks pretty cool too. I do have various boring snails in that tank to disturb the sand bed and 3 small conches. I know I set this up out of ignorance. This setup seems to be still working. Do I know how well my DSB is working? NO. Is it still working? Don't know that either. Too bad we can't ask my two 5 year old seahorses though.

Alex

 

[JP SPS]

I actually discussed sand beds with the guys at Reef Systems Coral Farm a couple of weeks ago. They have all bare bottom tanks and won't use any sand. The guy I spoke to talked about doing a series of experiments with Ohio State scientists and researchers where they were able to recreate tank crashes over and over simply by stirring up the sand in the bottom of the tank after a number of months. They hope to have research on this finalized and published at some point.

Basically my take away from that conversation was that the sand over an amount of time will almost certainly become toxic, and once stirred up it will wipe out corals. (especially SPS corals which the test was run on).

Just an FYI. And I still have a sand bed in my tank. :bigeyes:

 

[billsreef]

I'm going to take that with grain of salt until I actually see the published research.

 

[Nammy]

......they were able to recreate tank crashes over and over simply by stirring up the sand in the bottom of the tank after a number of months.....:bigeyes:

Don't think so!
If there was "crashes...after a number of months" there were other issues. There is no way. Lets see the research on that one.

 

[jda]

I was able to recreate tank crashes over and over by taking all of the rock out of my tank after a few months. ...or an equally stupid thing to do with an established tank.

Seriously, anybody who has been around for a while has had a Maxijet 1200 fall off of the suction cups and cause a sandstorm in their tanks... and they were fine.

 

[Humu Humu]

After reading this entire post, I still don't know. I have an aragonite DSB. I break the rules though, I vacuum it monthly. I used to dose limewater regularly, but found it caused my pumps to sieze up too often for my liking. It also tended to form clumps on the surface of the DSB. My vacuuming routine consisted of removing these clumps and taking off a 1/4 inch of the surface of the sand. Suffice to say , it slowly is getting thinner. However, my nitrates and phosphates register 0. So something is happening that seems to work. My corals are doing fine, including my acroporas. I won't use a DSB in the display for my next tank, as I prefer the clean look of a thin layer of white sand. I think I'll use a RDSB, and just swap it out maybe every two years or so.

As more than one person has said, it's trial and error and we really don't have all the answers.

 

[saf1]

There is sand in the ocean and at various depths. It does not get replaced.

Now, I will give you there is a minor question of Ocean volume compared to a box in our home or office. Still, it is there. I'll also say that many people swear about water changes, RI/RO, x type of lighting, nitrates, phosphates, and skimmers are required high, low, zero, and anywhere in between.

To each his or her own. I think the real question is how long the tank(s) running beds last and what their overall maintenance routines are. I believe in beds and have run them but that is just my opinion. There are those (some in these very forums) who run under gravel filters.

 

[power boat jim]

There is sand in the ocean and at various depths. It does not get replaced.


.

But it certainly gets turned over. Storm waves can dig out sand from the bottom and put it up on shore or move entire sand bars someplace else. Currents can move sand on a daily basis. Reef bottoms are generally not a static environment.