Are Deep Sand Beds, DSBs, dangerous to use in a marine aquarium?

I always get confused in these types of threads. I don't see why it is so complicated or why so many tanks have so many problems with algae, cyano, mini cycles (whatever that is) de-calcification, bio pellets, Kalk, parasites, velvet, the heartbreak of Psorisis etc.

I also don't know why I don't have these problems even though I seem to do "everything" wrong (as is pointed out many times). I don't use GFO, GAC, ABC, Doh Ray Me, etc. I don't have algae, cyano or Godzilla Larvae even though I change very little water, have no DSB (God Forbid) no bio pellets, reactors, controllers, test kits, hospital tank, quarantine tank or anything else but a DIY very old skimmer (with ozone) I do try to grow algae in a trough and lately in a new experimental algae growing thing but am not having much luck even though my nitrates were tested to be higher than 40 and my phosphates are probably off the scale, that is if I even had a scale. :worried:
My tank is not the best one on here but it is pretty good with the corals growing nicely (SPS and LPS), all the paired fish are spawning (including pipefish, mandarins and ruby red dragonettes) I stir my "gravel" once a year but besides that, never vacuum anything because there is nothing to vacuum. I overfeed to keep everything spawning and offer up tea leaves to the moon instead of quarantining. I am not complaining, just the opposite. I want to know why there are so many problems. I do add bacteria and thousands of amphipods from the sea and some NSW a couple of times a year. I don't know if that would have anything to do with it. Could it be my (OMG) Reverse UG filter? Or the "wild" bacteria? Any one want to try to answer that? I really want to know because I feel like an outcast without these problems or concerns. :smokin:
 
Paul, I will take a crack at answering your question, but need time to compose it as it involves discussing dark matter and cosmic rays. So, this reply is just place holder. Back in a few hours. Dan
 
@Paul

The short version, IMO, is that many people have been lead to believe that they need 1001 products for their reef tanks 'Just in case'. As a result the system is constantly unbalanced by competing products attempting to adjust or remove this, that and whatever. Poor bacteria don't know if they are coming or going, so the system goes out of whack frequently and algae, being the consumate opportunists, can take over. Pathogens can also take advantage of the animals weakened defences caused by unstable conditions. For the beginning hobbyist, especially, it can all end up being a 'hot mess'.

I believe that your system stays viable due to stable bacterial communities. You tend to replenish your system with bacteria from natural sources, which may/may not be neccesary, but hasn't hurt anything in over 40 years of operation :)

Using the 'natural system' approach, which relies exclusively on biological stability, I've had good results in 30+ years of reef keeping.

Ralph -
 
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Paul, I will take a crack at answering your question, but need time to compose it as it involves discussing dark matter and cosmic rays. So, this reply is just place holder. Back in a few hours. Dan
Click to expand...

I have been extensively been looking for the smoke and mirrors, but can't seem to find any.

Ralph, I think you are correct. I also think people feel the need to constantly tweek things. In fifty five+ years of fish keeping I have never adjusted my pH. I wonder why.
I feel a natural system is the way to go. I also realize most people don't have access to natural "wild" bacteria from the sea but I also don't know if that is a benefit or detriment. The fact that diseases predominates this hobby is, to me anyway, mind boggling. I don't think fish should ever get sick. I hear about mini cycles. If you have a "mini cycle" it means your tank is living on the verge of crashing all the time. You should be able to throw a manatee in your tank with nothing happening.
Here are a couple I met in Key Largo


I don't buy into un-natural things such as DSBs. I would rather have 1,000 baby long spined urchins nest in my back hair than have a DSB in my tank. Just my opinion of course and I am opinionated. I don't believe in bio pellets or GFO as natural algae can take care of any problems and do it naturally and for free. No one makes money on algae so we don't use it much to solve problems. I think quarantining is un natural and extremely stressful on fish unless your quarantine tank is as large as your main tank and decorated with something other than PVC plumbing. Our fish are scared of PVC plumbing because the only time they are supposed to see it is after we flush them when they are dead. Speaking of dead, fish in our care should live their normal lifespan or close to it. 5 or 6 years is not even close. :spin2:
I also don't see the need to vacuum the sand bed unless it looks better. I don't agree that nitrates and phosphates cause hair algae. if it did, I would be growing enough of it to put on my bald head. Ich is stupid, the life cycle is stupid and fish shouldn't get it, ever. Live food is the way to go and if you feed live food every day, just about all those other problems will magically go away. (personal experience) I think Supermodels make bad aquarists, but some of them are fun to look at. :beer:

OK, I'm done. Have a great day :thumbsup::lmao:
 
I don't think so. But how many Supermodels have tanks that use DSBs that have survived longer than a few weeks?
 
Paul B said:
...
I don't buy into un-natural things such as DSBs...
Click to expand...
Hmm, DSBs exist in nature.

Conversely, I've never seen a single confined (as in totally isolated) space like an aquarium during any of my dives. Aquariums are "un-natural". Yours, mine, everybody's.

Why we expect magical things to happen in a confined space is beyond me.
 
Paul B said:
I don't think so. But how many Supermodels have tanks that use DSBs that have survived longer than a few weeks?
Click to expand...

Paul... You're supposed to tell those Supermodels that DSB are for the fish, not for them. I hate seeing supermodels survival rates drop to just a few weeks. There are so few of them left. :fun2:
 
Personally I'm convinced that the key to the success and failure of really any depth of sand bed, is summed up with one word.

"Biodiversity"

Throughout the years my experience has been that the systems teeming the most with diverse life tend to be the most stable and least prone to "issues". And what I also have found is that in order to promote and sustain that biodiversity, the choice of substrate is actually critical, really fine substrates being the best and coarser grain sand being worse. And IMHO the absolute worst offender of all is any kind of crushed coral and aragonite, both being very poor habitats for the critters needed to support a healthy sandbed and very prone to having detritus clog up the entire sandbed.
 
Anecdotal evidence

Anecdotal evidence

I can't offer anything except my own experience...

I set up a 170g system with a 7" DSB of Southdown sand about 13 years ago. Had it set up for ~8 years. It didn't 'crash', really, but the water quality was dropping off towards the end. The main reason I shut it down was that the grape caulerpa I had in the 'fuge went nuts, migrated to the main tank, covered the live rock, killed most of the corals... impossible to get rid of. I attribute the macro algae growth to an excess of nutrients, but I've got no way to prove that... Happened in big hurry.

Until that event, it was the best system I'd ever run. Coral growth off the charts, excellent water quality with very little maintenance, various micro-critters breeding happily... Now, was that the DSB? Don't know. System was running a large PM Bullet skimmer, had a large refugeum, good RO/DI system with an automated top-off, CO2 Calcium reactor, plenty of flow, great lighting... Might have done just as well _without_ the DSB.

I'm in the process of starting up a new tank now, and I won't be using a DSB. Thought about it, but in the sort of system I'm setting up, it really won't work.

I can only hope that my new tank will be as successful as my DSB system was for the first few years. Honestly, if the price you pay for the good results I had was that you have to pull your tank apart and replace the entire sand bed twice a decade? Well, it might be worth it.
 
And IMHO the absolute worst offender of all is any kind of crushed coral and aragonite, both being very poor habitats for the critters needed to support a healthy sandbed and very prone to having detritus clog up the entire sandbed.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with this from the first "A" to the last "B". That is IMO of course. I realize the entire earth is a big DSB and maybe that is why 98% of all life that ever lived is extinct. Maybe if the earth used a Reverse UG filter we would still have Dodo birds, Tyrannosaurus Rex and Ed Sullivan. I run dolomite and the life grows all the way through to the bottom glass because the entire bed is bathed in oxygenated water that is continuously pumped through it. A DSB by design lacks oxygen so very few animals except maybe Brian Williams can survive in the lower layers. In the last 4 decades my gravel has never clogged, I can stir it if I like or leave it alone to simmer. I just collected a 5 gallon bucket of amphipods and dumped them in my reef. I can find them all through the gravel as that is where I want them to live so they can multiply and maybe do the macarana to feed my dragonettes and coral. They really hate DSBs because they can't burry down where there is no oxygen. My gravel still seems to be extreamly healthy after all these years and you can not see any detritus in my tank. You can't see Ed Sullivan either but I am still looking. :dance:
 
Paul B said:
I realize the entire earth is a big DSB and maybe that is why 98% of all life that ever lived is extinct.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you're entirely joking here (you never know!), but I'll play the pessimist and say that this isn't likely. As far as I'm aware, there are two main schools of thought when it comes to large-scale patterns of extinctions, both of which propose that species unable to adapt to *changes* in the environment/other species go extinct. Unless there are some major, large-scale changes to the soil, the presence of deep soils has nothing to do with it. And if you were joking, well... :headwallblue:
 
Dan_P said:
Paul, I will take a crack at answering your question, but need time to compose it as it involves discussing dark matter and cosmic rays. So, this reply is just place holder. Back in a few hours. Dan
Click to expand...


Paul says: I always get confused in these types of threads. I don't see why it is so complicated or why so many tanks have so many problems with algae, cyano, mini cycles (whatever that is) de-calcification, bio pellets, Kalk, parasites, velvet, the heartbreak of Psorisis etc.

Dan says: I have pondered this question myself and propose the following.

Dark Matter

Fish do not fair well in this hobby. I saw statistics that imply a lot of fish, and I will assume a lot of other life forms as well, perish at the hands of aquarists. This bit of trivia suggests that there may in fact be a lot of issues and failures. Our view may not be a biased view point formed by reading posts dominated by issues. Maybe this has always been the problems, but now it easier to broadcast and read about it.

Paul says: I also don't know why I don't have these problems even though I seem to do "everything" wrong (as is pointed out many times). I don't use GFO, GAC, ABC, Doh Ray Me, etc. I don't have algae, cyano or Godzilla Larvae even though I change very little water, have no DSB (God Forbid) no bio pellets, reactors, controllers, test kits, hospital tank, quarantine tank or anything else but a DIY very old skimmer (with ozone) I do try to grow algae in a trough and lately in a new experimental algae growing thing but am not having much luck even though my nitrates were tested to be higher than 40 and my phosphates are probably off the scale, that is if I even had a scale.

Dan say: As Zen master, you may no longer be able to feel the pain of the novice.

Cosmic Rays

I think you had some problems when you first started out and I assume not all your experiments with keeping a saltwater system worked out for the best. One thing you are probably not guilty of now is overstocking your system. I am astounded at how much livestock is rammed into new systems. Somewhere the message was lost about keeping saltwater systems lightly stocked. They've turned into fish farms battling nutrient build up.

Paul says: My tank is not the best one on here but it is pretty good with the corals growing nicely (SPS and LPS), all the paired fish are spawning (including pipefish, mandarins and ruby red dragonettes) I stir my "gravel" once a year but besides that, never vacuum anything because there is nothing to vacuum. I overfeed to keep everything spawning and offer up tea leaves to the moon instead of quarantining. I am not complaining, just the opposite. I want to know why there are so many problems. I do add bacteria and thousands of amphipods from the sea and some NSW a couple of times a year. I don't know if that would have anything to do with it. Could it be my (OMG) Reverse UG filter? Or the "wild" bacteria? Any one want to try to answer that? I really want to know because I feel like an outcast without these problems or concerns.

Dan says: experts may find it hard to explain why they are successful. Implicit knowledge, like intuition, is difficult to pass on.

Dark Energy

There are people who "get it". They learn how to care for critters. They focus on the critters and not the equipment, the latest idea or what experts think. If you do listen to and follow experts, you are going to be whipsawed by the latest new theory on how to maintain critters. I think you are in the group who are skeptical, slow to accept the new ideas, and focus, focus, focus on the critters. There are a few on this forum who follow this approach.

If you put this group of people who "get it" in a room and discuss their techniques, my bet is that they do things differently but achieve the same thing for the critters that they keep. I hope they get together soon and share what they achieve, not so much what they do. So, you have a reverse underground filter and you dump bacteria collected from the frozen oceans of the Jovian moons into your aquarium. I say that is a side show, a technique, a quirky performance. You are doing far more important things that you haven't articulated yet. I am waiting for your book so that I might be able to figure it out.

Maybe we need a forum for Zen Masters to speak so that we might absorb their wisdom.
 
reefgeezer said:
Paul... You're supposed to tell those Supermodels that DSB are for the fish, not for them. I hate seeing supermodels survival rates drop to just a few weeks. There are so few of them left. :fun2:
Click to expand...


I believe Hanna and her horse are doing rather well .... I base this assessment on the fact that I continue to see her every night, usually multiple times a night, on my TV .... so it must be true ...
 
Dan, I have killed so many fish that I probably have helped with the extinction. Why do you think we thought Coelacanth's were almost extinct? It was me. When the hobby started (and I have written extensively on it and dedicated a chapter in my book about it) aquarium keeping was a challenge, but it was a challenge that was good for the hobby as that was when much of the critical knowledge was gained as there was no internet, so no wrong information. No information at all as a matter of fact but what we did know, we learned from trial and mostly error. Very early in the hobby, so early that it was in my fresh water phase, or "bait" as I like to call fresh water fish, I learned the biggest secret of the hobby. The secret that overshadows all other things in the hobby. Much bigger than Obama's college records or where Brian Williams gets these stories. The secret (which I have also written about ad nausea) is still helping me today and it is the one thing that is so important that everything else in this hobby falls by the wayside. No one wants to use my secret so I stopped mentioning it. People would rather take a fish from the sea, put it in a small, bare quarantine tank for 72 days. Try sitting for 72 days in a small room with no friends and not even a Supermodel or reality show to look at. So in 72 days the fish is so stressed that it is thrilled that now it is put in a tank of creatures it has never met and we feel it is just going to forget what we did to him and go about his business of living a happy healthy life.
Unfortunately that fish in many cases will be fed a diet of flakes, pellets and frozen whatever that is supposed to keep him healthy. Of course many times, in spite of all that quarantine time it comes down with parasites and we read:
OMG, I quarantined everything including my Old Aunt Ester, put my quarantine tank 157 yards away from my reef so the ich didn't get in from osmosis and the fish are still dropping dead from the disease. You know I am right as you can easily search and find dozens of those threads right on reef Central. Now why is that? Maybe 72 days isn't long enough, maybe we should quarantine for 3 years. Maybe we shouldn't have reef tanks, just large quarantine tanks. Would that stop the dreaded ich?
DSBs, SSBs, no sand bed, reverse UG filter, starboard, Dutch Mini Reef, Jaubert system, the fish don't care and it doesn't matter what type of substrate we have. There are all sorts of successful tanks and it has nothing to do with substrate. Yes, I do joke around (a little) because, to me, this is a hobby and supposed to be fun. But all we hear is problems. Why is that?
It's because many people don't use my secret. No, I am not lucky. My fish don't live long enough to get social security because they are lucky. It's not even because of my UG filter although I would like it to be. It is not because of quarantining or not quarantining (but that does have something to do with keeping fish healthy and not because of what you think, just the opposite)
I don't go on so many threads on here any more because of the arguments and I am old and tired. It is so simple but people refuse to take the time to do it.
The secret is live worms. :deadhorse:
That's it. Live worms every day will keep the fishes immune system so fine tuned that you could put the fish in a meat grinder and he will come out fine. OK, maybe not. Now I realize many, or most, OK, "all" of you think it can't be worms. The old guy is nuts. He is senile. Maybe so. But I am right now looking at my tank. I am watching the 24 year old fireclowns playing with each other and the other 15 or 20 fish that have never been quarantined, have no DSB, have never even had a headache but all of them eat some live worms every day with their regular meal of mostly clam. They also know I don't have test kits or a hospital tank and they are not worried. They know that if they are in my tank, most of them will die of old age.
I bought them all and after a little acclimation, threw them in my tank (gently). Even if they had parasites because they are a non issue. Even in spite of the mud, amphipods, flounders, worms, crabs, shrimp and seaweed I collect from a bay and dump in with no fanfare.
I wrote an article about slime and the fishes immune system but I am not allowed to link it here. It is in my book that is not out yet but I probably can't link anything from it here either. But the main thing is live worms. Not bloodworms, not freeze dried worms, not mealworms but blackworms (or earthworms). If you remember your fresh water days, if you wanted to spawn fish the first thing you read was to feed live food. Many of us forgot that bit of advice. We prefer to read the ingredients on a can of flakes and see all the wonderful things they put in it (before it was processed, baked, dried and canned) Live worms have one ingredient, worms. That's the secret. Take it or leave it. :beer:
 
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