Are flame angles difficult to get though quarantine?

[ajm-vfr]

Hi

I just came how to find my flame angle dead in my quarantine tank. This is the second flame that did not make it for me. The first flame I lost was about 4 months ago, and it looked like ich. I was not fast enough treating it. I put this flame in qt 2 weeks ago with a fox face that is maybe 1 inch longer. The flame was about 1.5 inch from head to tail. The fox face is fine. I also have a couple of Nassarius snails in there. I started putting a couple snails in my qt when the fish look healthy and I'm not starting with copper. It seems to keeps the tank cleaner. I realize that I will probably loose them if I have to treat with copper, or I will move them to my coral QT if it's empty.

My qt is a 20 gallon tank with a well cycled sponge filter and some pvc pipes, a heater, and a power head. There is no substrate.

I cannot find anything wrong with the water. His body looked perfect, well except for the dead thing. No signs of parasite, I checked ammonia, it was 0, the ph was 8.4 and the salinity was 1.024. It was alive at 1:30 this afternoon and eating, then dead at 8pm. My clocks are not flashing, so I am assuming that the power was not out.

Is it possible he brushed the spines on the fox face? I would imagine that the scales would offer some protection. I found not signs of puncture, but that is just eyeball looking, I don’t know if I would see anything anyway. I though about leaving him in the tank to see if he was maybe just paralyzed (maybe by venom), but with no activity in the gills, and I did not want to pollute the tank as he decomposed.

I’m bummed, that’s 2 flames that did not make qt. Now the question is should I reset the clock on the fox face?

Is it common to have problems with flames? The shop I got this flame from promised that is a Christmas Island flame. I really want a flame, but I am now starting to get gun shy.

Thanks

 

[stykthyn]

if you can, try to get one from hawaii. these fish tend to be much hardier and do better in the aquarium.

 

[Brandon M]

I, too, have had troubles with flame angels. For some reason I have had two die on me for unknown reasons.

 

[Triggerfish]

Re: Are flame angles difficult to get though quarantine?

tough to say exactly why the 2nd one died.

the first one you mentioned was some type of massive parasite infection; which could kill many fish and not just flames.

you may find it easier to only quarantine 1 fish at a time. especially in a tank <50g.

i would't think they would require any more special care than most other species.

if rabbitfish looks ok still..then no need to continue quarantine longer than you were planning. 5-6 weeks anyway.

 

[rambone]

Re: Re: Are flame angles difficult to get though quarantine?

Re: Re: Are flame angles difficult to get though quarantine?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8029710#post8029710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Triggerfish
tough to say exactly why the 2nd one died.

the first one you mentioned was some type of massive parasite infection; which could kill many fish and not just flames.

you may find it easier to only quarantine 1 fish at a time. especially in a tank <50g.

i would't think they would require any more special care than most other species.

if rabbitfish looks ok still..then no need to continue quarantine longer than you were planning. 5-6 weeks anyway.

flame angels are fairly prone to getting easily stressed out, they are more delicate IMO than tangs.

 

[hanas]

do you have any copper in your QT? If so, that is sure death for a flame angel.

 

[ajm-vfr]

No copper. I normally do not use copper, but I have in the past. the tank has been thoughly rinsed since and used twice since then without copper.

 

[Triggerfish]

Re: Re: Re: Are flame angles difficult to get though quarantine?

Re: Re: Re: Are flame angles difficult to get though quarantine?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8030372#post8030372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rambone
flame angels are fairly prone to getting easily stressed out.

all the ones i see come in are much more bolder than all the other small angel species we get. they settle in right often same day. most others hide for 3-5 days.
they seem to ship very well too..really good condition.

curious what your opinion is based on, lots of bad luck with them?

 

[Angel*Fish]

ajm-vfr,

I wouldn't say that this was causative in the death of your flame, but IMO sterile hospital style quarantine conditions are not preferable for dwarf angels. A better quarantine would be 20g minimum (preferably 30g) tank with some life covered LR and macroalgae -- the more the better. The LR should be stacked loosely such that many swim through and hiding areas are created.

I can't imagine a situation in which I would treat a Centropyge with copper - some species are more sensitive than others, but I wouldn't use it even for one with visible signs of ich. There are other methods - hyposalinity for one.

If a marine fish looks healthy & acts healthy usually an optimal environment provides the fish a situation in which it's natural defenses can take care of diseases. Optimal for these little angels is the above described quarantine which is better than tossing them in the main tank because they don't have the stress of working out territory/space issues with other fish. Excellent nutrition plus availability of tempting food (eg live brine) are important. Excellent nutrition for angels includes LR with lots of life including microalgae. A diatom bloom in your quarantine would be a real comfort to most Centropyges. Some, including flames, appreciate some filamentous algae.

Live brine can even be gut loaded with Selcon (or other) before offering to make it more healthy.

I'd bet that your fish was doomed anyway. But the above suggestions can mean the difference between success and failure with a fish that comes to you in less than perfect shape.

Hope this helps.

 

[NexDog]

My two dwarf angels are hard as nails. The flame angel survived a nightmare QT cycle where I lost 4 of 6 fish. Water quality went down the toilet on that cycle but the Flame survived where others perished.

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8035830#post8035830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angel*Fish
with visible signs of ich. There are other methods - hyposalinity for one.

any other proven method you can think of?

 

[818]

What the hell is Quarantine

Mine never did well in QT. They all died in there.

So when I bought another I threw it straight in the main display and hes been kicken ever since!

 

[818]

Ive tooken the big risk of not QT fish. But Ive been lucky till this day...

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8036328#post8036328 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Triggerfish
any other proven method you can think of?

Uuuum...you caught me

I don't know if it's proven - but prayer might work.

Actually I just meant good nutrition, low stress conditions, vitamins including beta-glucan as touted in the disease forum by Leebca, HUFA enriched meals 3-4 times a day and the usual suspect fresh squeezed garlic. General pampering to reduce stress. IMHO stress = fish disease and often "0"stress can result in "0" disease.

I definitely don't mean to imply that a fish that's peppered with white spots can return to health by simply reducing stress.

 

[ajm-vfr]

I think I figured it out, and unfortunate it's probably my fault.

I always watch ammonia, but never watch nitrites. I discovered yesterday that my nitrites where off my test kit at over 5.0.

I had the sponge running in my sump for about 4 weeks, but it was new, and probably did not completely cycle.

I set up the QT and put the fish it. I did watch for ammonia every 3 days, and never saw a spike, but somehow I must of missed it.

I don't know if the nitrite spike was enough to kill the angel, but it had to put it under a ton of stress.

I did a 5 gallon water change last night and a 10 gallon change today. That still held the nitrites at 5.0. I desperation I picked up a bottle of amquel+ and dosed the tank. The nitrites drop to about 3. I'm going to do about a 15 gallon water change tomorrow and make another dose if I need it. Then the challenge will be to keep it down. I can clearly tell the foxface is stressed, but I think it will be ok. He's just going to be in there for a while.

Thanks to all those that replied.

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8038413#post8038413 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angel*Fish

I definitely don't mean to imply that a fish that's peppered with white spots can return to health by simply reducing stress.

understood.. btw: great pics in your gallery..very nice looking setup you have there..

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8040429#post8040429 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ajm-vfr
my nitrites where off my test kit at over 5.0.

I did watch for ammonia every 3 days, and never saw a spike, but somehow I must of missed it.

I don't know if the nitrite spike was enough to kill the angel, but it had to put it under a ton of stress.

odd indead that amm would rise and zero out all within 3 days..the nitrogen cycle just doesn't work that quick. i mean not even to see any amm at all just doesn't seem likely. what kit were you using?

so i'm led to believe either one of those kits could perhaps be faulty. abviously if you have NO2 now you had NH3 prior..so that's what did the angel in.

btw: i also setup a small qt with sump media that was in there for about a month and it did nothing to help cycle the qt when i added a fish. the amm shot up beginning on day 1 and just kept rising.

 

[ajm-vfr]

I'm using a test kit from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. It's one of the cheap kits, but it has always worked in the past. I would not even expect the amm spike to be gone even if it started up on the first day, so I am really confused.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8042275#post8042275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Triggerfish
btw: i also setup a small qt with sump media that was in there for about a month and it did nothing to help cycle the qt when i added a fish. the amm shot up beginning on day 1 and just kept rising.

I though about this last night. My tank is a 125 + sump for a total water volume of 175 gallons. I have 75ish pounds of live rock and a moderate bioload. This sponge was new. I opened the package, connect the airline and put it in the sump, with the air on. All of that rock is technically breaking down my bio-waste. I understand the concept of molecules spreading out uniformly in a water column, but how much material is really getting to the sponge to seed the sponge. In hind sight, maybe this is not the best way to seed a sponge. Maybe a seeded sponge can maintain it's bacteria count if it's stored in the sump, but the difference in bioload from what it gets in the sump to what it gets in the QT, I would think, is very large.

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8042454#post8042454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ajm-vfr

how much material is really getting to the sponge to seed the sponge. In hind sight, maybe this is not the best way to seed a sponge.

the more crap that accumulates on the sponge the more biological it becomes..hence it's bi-product with be nitrates..but that really isn't the main concern early on for the qt. efficient bio filtration is.

i think the sponge would need to be left in there for many months to have accumulated enough nitrifying bacteria to be efficient enough.

 

[ajm-vfr]

I agree "many months" is probably more what is needed. The part that stinks is when you have to start off with a new sponge. I thought I was doing good with it in there a month before I needed it. Now I'm starting to rethink how I start the QT cycle. When I'm dealing with a new sponge.

Have you ever used any of the bacteria seeding products? I think what I am going to do is the next time I need that tank is to it up a week early and put some ammonia or food in the tank(maybe mysis) to see if I gets a small ammonia spike, then wait for the spike to drop, then put the fish it. I've read about that approach, but I have never tried it. I know that whatever I'm doing I need to do differently.