Are You Over Lighting, Over Skimming, and Underfeeding Your TBS Rock Tank?

[HowardW]

I originally starting keeping both Florida wild and then aquacultured live rock back in the 1980's and have successfully kept it on and off since. I've also experimented with all different types and strengths of lighting over my live rock tanks from multiple normal output and VHO flourescents to PC's to T5HO's to halides, and have found it typically does best long term under just minimal lighting with the possible exceptions of some of the shallow water photosynthetic gorgonians and anemones and a few other species of corals. I'ts also been my experience this type of rock does best in tanks that are not way over skimmed or filtered, and also overfed along with with very good turbulent flow throughout the tank. Does this sound like nearly the exact opposite of what most people tell you? :eek1: :lol:


I'd like to go into further detail on lighting and feeding TBS rock if anyone's interested in discussing their tanks and how you run them...

 

[conjuay]

As someone new to this endeavor, it is nice to hear an experienced person say something more than "Halides, Halides and even more Halides!"
Although I really swoon at the sight of some of these super purified and skimmed tanks, the environmental impact of this hobby appears staggering! Four hundred watt lamps, then fans and chillers to undo the lamp's heat. Filter every last bit of protein out, then supplement with all kinds of microbes.
I am suprised that the electricity used to run these systems has not (that I've noticed) been addressed by ANY of the many reef forums. Electricity (in the US) is produced predominantly from COAL, which (we all know the drill) leads to global warming WHICH DESTROYS THE REEFS!!!

Ironic, ain't it?

I am "trying out" some LED lighting from Clearly LEDS
( http://www.clearlyleds.com/Index.htm ).
I have no experience to draw from, but I know these use less power than halides, or even fluorescents.
I have managed to bleach out some orange Cap with these (cap that, at the LFS, was under halides) so they must be fairly intense.

Personally, I would LOVE you to give us your take on all the elements and parameters that others consider 'absolutes'.
I, for one, don't want to increase my "carbon footprint" in order to stare in amazement at my own mini reef.
I am expecting to set up a larger tank this coming week, purchased used from someone who had gotten tired of throwing money at all the various problems he was having.
I expect to spend some money on some serious (TBS) live sand and rock, light it with just four "Clearly" panels -which leaves some darker spots for dramatic effect, and await more of your input about what is perceived, and what is actually needed.
Tell us more!

 

[wooglin]

I underskim, overfeed, and basicilly run a dirty reef. I also have about 5000 gph of flow in my 75 gallon aquarium so it is very turbulent. Perhaps this is part of why my TBS reef has done so well. I do run Halides, as well as VHO, but my Montipora Capricornis has grown to the point where I have two zones in my tank, the top half, which is where my SPS is, and the bottom half which is shaded and is where LPS as TBS stuff like sponges etc is.

Another little secret, you need a large engineer goby, they create lots of cavernous regions that are wide open under the rock, that work well for the small forms of life that tend to thrive with TBS rock.

 

[HowardW]

Yes conjuay, it's been my experience that powerful high PAR halides are not only not needed for most of the myriad life and critters found on TBS rocks, but may actually be detrimental. They are however very good at growing cyano and hair algae :lol:



Very cool wooglin! Would also be interested to hear how others manage their TBS setups and their successes or issues.

 

[wooglin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11199702#post11199702 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HowardW
They are however very good at growing cyano and hair algae :lol:

I dont agree with singling out halides as a primary source of algea. All of your bulb types; PC, VHO,T5 and what ever type will all cause nuisance algea if the bulbs are not replaced when the color spectrum shifts which with Halides varys, but it is typically around 9-12 months. The same can be said for PC bulbs, when their color spectrum shifts around 12 months you will discover that unusual algea will begin to grow. VHO shifts at six months. T5 well they are very promising, and seem to have a longer life but they too shift and have to be replaced long before they ever burn out.

It is important to note that the Par levels where TBS rock is collected is no where near what any of our current bulbs provide. The reality is even a 400watt halide does not come close to the PAR level at 30 feet in the ocean.

For the low light life that thrives in a TBS reef I like a 20k halide (I use 10k XM's). Lower light sources work very well with TBS rock, but you have to keep in mind that if you choose this route you will not be able to keep SPS or LPS from other regions with much success. Halides provide the most bang for you buck, are versatile in how much light they provide and have gotten very cheap in the past two years. When I started four years ago the price difference between PC, and Halide was verylarge. Now a good Halide setup including the hood can be had for 200 dollars or so.

All of that being said I really like T5's if they are installed with the proper individual reflectors.

I like LED's even better, but the 1500 dollar price to dinner is too much for my blood.

 

[wooglin]

The clearly LED solution looks interesting, but for a 75 gallon it looks like about 1000 dollars to get into the door, and I build it myself. I would save on the replacement of bulbs, so it would save on bulbs, and they use about 50% less electricity that a comparable light source.

 

[conjuay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11198826#post11198826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooglin


Another little secret, you need a large engineer goby, they create lots of cavernous regions that are wide open under the rock, that work well for the small forms of life that tend to thrive with TBS rock.

A LARGE engineer goby? Don't they get big? Like, a foot and a half long? I also read they like company...
Two or three of 'em?

Hmmm...

 

[HowardW]

Yes of course nearly any type of lighting can cause hair algae issues, however the high nutrient water sometimes found in overfed tanks combined with more intense lighting can typically lead to forests of HA for many people.


I know Richard has said a few different times that his Gulf rock is collected about 3 miles or so offshore and in very turbid water about 20' deep. I know he's told me the water is typically so turbid that he can usually never even see bottom from the boat at 20' and mostly has very little visibility at all. I think when you combine those conditions with all the partly cloudy or overcast days that TBS rock would actually get fairly low PAR levels in the wild and probably nowhere near what the reefs at 20' would get in the tropical reefs found in the south pacific where it's not unusual to be able to see bottom on most days even at 50' - 70' deep.

 

[wooglin]

I do agree that the TBS collection site is low in light much of the time. So if you dont want to keep anything but what comes in the package halides are definatly not required. Most people like to keep other things as well and such low light conditions dont work for that. If I were keeping a biotype tank with just animals for TBS I would use a 20k bulb and have a very pretty blue look.

 

[wooglin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11201099#post11201099 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by conjuay
A LARGE engineer goby? Don't they get big? Like, a foot and a half long? I also read they like company...
Two or three of 'em?

Hmmm...

I do have a single one, and they do get to be about 1 foot or so. Very neat fish. The coolest personalities. Mine is about 10 years old and recognizes me. He is beginning to lose his sight so I have to get right up to the glass for him to see me.

 

[conjuay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11201167#post11201167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooglin
I do have a single one, and they do get to be about 1 foot or so. Very neat fish. The coolest personalities. Mine is about 10 years old and recognizes me. He is beginning to lose his sight so I have to get right up to the glass for him to see me.

I will definitely look into getting one...

 

[Untamed12]

For the TBS rock, I'm OVER-lit....but the SPS that live on the TBS rock likely need the light I'm providing.

I'm definately OVER-fed. Mainly because I believe in feeding the TBS rock/critters and having fat, healthy fish.

I'm UNDER-skimmed. This is just a guess based on the struggles that I have with hair algae/nitrates. I'm not willing to starve the tank as a solution, so I'll likely try a larger skimmer.

Like Wooglin, others would describe my tank as a dirty-reef. It's very healthy, but there's a lot of realism there that doesn't fit the popular notion of what is "right". While I could do with less hair algae, I like a more natural look to my tank.

 

[HowardW]

Ok nice description......let's get some others!


As a side note, for those with about 55g. and under tanks, Tunze advertises it's #9002 Nano DOC Skimmer as plankton friendly for those that routinely feed live phyto like DT's.

 

[conjuay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11198826#post11198826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooglin
I underskim, overfeed, and basicilly run a dirty reef. I also have about 5000 gph of flow in my 75 gallon aquarium so it is very turbulent.

"Turbulent"?
You could empty a 24' X14' in-ground swimming pool in TWO HOURS with that kind of flow!

 

[wooglin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11203874#post11203874 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by conjuay
"Turbulent"?
You could empty a 24' X14' in-ground swimming pool in TWO HOURS with that kind of flow!

I use Tunze Surge 6000's and a mag 12 for my return from my sump.

 

[jmait769]

I’ve had my rock for a year and a half now. I got interested in TBS from the <a href="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11200936#post11200936" target="_blank">Our TBS</a> thread on the New to Hobby forum. Maybe some of the new TBS owners here could post there as the thread has gone stale. If I had to setup another reef I wouldn’t think of doing it any other way than TBS. All the diverse life forms that come with the rock can’t be replicated piecing a tank together IMO.

I really wanted SPS corals and set the tank up in that direction. I know I over light because the corals that came with the rock have turned white. The good news is that as the SPS corals have become larger they are shading the TBS coral and they are returning to their natural color. Lighting is 6 T5’s with a 4 bulb Nova Extreme fixture and a two bulb retro kit. All Giesemann bulbs.

I think my skimming is just right. Not over skimming the nutrients out and not under skimming causing a dirty tank. I’m using a Reef Devil with a mag 7. I run carbon and PhosBan in separate reactors 24/7.

I feed what the fish can eat once a day, dose cyclopeez and Kent Micro Vert a few times a week. You can read my daily chores on this thread: <a href="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11124656#post11124656" target="_blank">What is your schedule?</a>.

Side view:

My favorite coral I got with the TBS! I have started fragging this and it seems to get bigger the more I cut from it!!

This is my favorite rock I got from Richard. It has a huge cave inside of it and openings on either side. It had the yellow boring anemones on it when I got it and they have drilled inward into the rock making it very porous.

Current pic of the rock.

Full tank shot Sep 06

Sep 07

Jay

 

[wooglin]

Very nice

 

[SPeter]

Howard
I thought that the lancelets were short time creatures. I found 6 to 8 of them living in my fuge of my wet dry? Is that kinda wierd?The tank has been up and running for about 4 months.
Also have you removed all of your mantis and gorillas? if so how long has it taken as I am starting to hand feed mine as they are so hard to remove and I guess if I feed them they will go easy on the good critters.
Thank you for your help,
Steve

 

[HowardW]

<<< Also have you removed all of your mantis and gorillas? if so how long has it taken as I am starting to hand feed mine as they are so hard to remove and I guess if I feed them they will go easy on the good critters.
Thank you for your help, >>>


IMO it's best to either remove the gorilla crabs and mantis shrimps before the rock even goes into the tank or very soon afterwards, before they become too familiar with the tank and dig in and make their little homes. There have been lots of threads here on methods to remove them, and I still feel the best way for crabs is the baited tilted glass trick, and to just remove the rock and physical extraction for mantis shrimps.

The gorilla crabs may not be all that bad until they get some size to them, and mantis' may also not do too much damage if fed regularly. The one pest you really want to remove ASAP are the stone crabs if you got any, they are real trouble makers IMO.

 

[SPeter]

Well last night I watched as the small mantis ate a 1 inch long blenny hitchhiker. I made sure that the mantis had some krill yesterday and then last night down went the blenny. I am going to go get a nut and bolt retriever, the claw type. Then I am going crab and mantis hunting.
I use the modified glass trick but the hermits love the bait and man oh man do I catch the hermits. But I must be persistant.
Thank you for your help Howard,

Steve