asking experienced reefers...

[dinthbrgh]

first, i want to say i have a really good lfs and he's walking me thru each step of the way. but i want to put it out there to see what input you folks may have.

i have about a dozen nice size corals in my 29g which were all doing well for a months. then hubby gave me a clam at the end of dec. shortly after i noticed my my kh dropping to dangerously low levels, so my lfs had me start dosing with b-ionic alk/calc buffer system. i test it and also take samples in for him to test. since i've begun dosing my params are bouncing around a bit. in the past 2 weeks i lost an alveapora, my birdsnest is n't doing quite as well (although it is growing), my clam closed up for a day (but seems better now and is growing), and my lavender pagoda cup took a sudden turn for the worst yesterday (polyps closed and looking black, and a small brown patch on it).

each time a coral goes loopy, we test a sample and the kh is low, so i've been slowly increasing the dose. right now i'm at 10ml alk only (calc still at 7.5 minimum dose). my two fish seem to be handling it ok, and fireshrimp and cuc are ok.

at this point, our best guess is a combination of low kh and fluctuating params are causing my corals to react.

also should mention that i've been running phosguard at double strength for 5 days after my phos tested 11...near critical. my lfs guy did say that phosguard has been considered suspicious in coral death, but the high phos is a bigger issue. turned off the phosguard today, when isaw the brown patches had eroded lavender off the skeleton of the pagoda cup. last test 2 days ago phos had dropped to .05. it's probably even lower now, but still have to test. he uses hanna testers so he gets more accurate readings than my salifert test.

just wondering what you might think.

 

[Painted skin]

I would get rid of the clam sound like it more trouble than it's worth to you, while other have success. You should do your own test more often as by the time you get to the LFS it maybe too late. I agree with the LFS store regarding phos guard not good for reef as it has something to do with Aluminum Oxide leeching aluminum not too sure if anyone has proven that yet or not, I would use high cap GFO instead of phosguard. It is very easy for a small tank parameter to go out of wack as it such a small close system and clam does consume a lot of calcium.

Phosphate in itself at that level does not kill corals only if you have algae problem that can lead to algae smothering, suffocating and completing with corals for nutrient.

 

[dinthbrgh]

thanks for the reply. i have test kits and use them, but, as i said, lfs uses hanna checkers, which i do not have, so his readings are more accurate. but mine give me enough of an idicator to know if i need him to test. but, really, my corals tell me there's a problem even when my tests don't. as far as algae...i have none, zero, nada algae. so that is not affecting anything.

lfs agrees about and has recommended the reactor. at this point, we have to stick with phosguard, so i try to use it wisely and keep a watchful eye on things.

i'd rather not get rid of the clam because of issues, but rather learn how to handle the needed changes and improve my reefing skills.

i do appreciate the response.

 

[XERXIES_333]

Have you checked your Mg yet ? Your Calcium and carbonate portions that represent Alk. only remain suspended in the water if the Mg is at optimal levels. If Mg is low You can dump more then you should into the system and its just binding to the calcium and falling out of solution and thats why its not showing on your test.

What brand of salt do you use ?
I found that the better brands like Tropic marin and Reefers best are better for clams and sps as the K levels are high in IO salt and dd.

It might be time to upgrade to bigger tank as this will help to keep your parameters stable.


Do you take your sample for testing at the same time everyday?
Your parameters fluctuate over the day, just the lights coming on puts the PH of the tank up, the consistency of those fluctuation that you need to keep track of, and the bigger the system is the less drastic these fluctuations are.


Good luck

 

[Painted skin]

i'd rather not get rid of the clam because of issues, but rather learn how to handle the needed changes and improve my reefing skills.

I do respect that you want to improve your reefing skills, but when the trail and error is sacrificing your corals and can be an expensive lesson. I'm talking from experience with trail and error. I am only suggesting it maybe wise to either pawn it off or have a friend to hold on to it for the time being until you have thing back under control while finding the problem, because at this point you're not sure what is. while researching what's needed to keep clam in your system..

 

[dinthbrgh]

thanks for the input, xerxies. we did consider mg, but my lfs doesn't think that is the issue. he, obviously, continues to encourage me to upgrade to a bigger tank. =) he has a nice 75g starfire rr for $400 that i'd like to get, but there are circumstances that keep the decision to upgrade on hold, for now.

i've begun dosing right after lights out hoping that will keep levels up overnight, but i guess i should probably discuss that with him. he is recommending a refugium with alternate lighting to prevent level drops at night, but i have no room unless i upgrade. so, for now, we are doing the best we can with what i am capable of.

using io reef crystals.

 

[phenom5]

My thought, and maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but...

each time a coral goes loopy, we test a sample and the kh is low, so i've been slowly increasing the dose. right now i'm at 10ml alk only (calc still at 7.5 minimum dose). my two fish seem to be handling it ok, and fireshrimp and cuc are ok.

at this point, our best guess is a combination of low kh and fluctuating params are causing my corals to react.

IMO/IME you need to test more to dial in your dosing. You should test every day, and adjust your dosage based on the results. After a few weeks you should be dialed in and then you won't need to test as often.

Of course, dosing pumps run by a controller is the ultimate in stability, and I definitely recommend it.

 

[dinthbrgh]

phenom...you're absolutely right. i should be testing twice daily, am and pm. i confess i am lax at testing. the problem comes down to, i need to invest in a better test for alk. using red sea, which is accurate, but difficult to read and leaves a lot to interpretation. i get close, but the hanna checkers get closer and the difference can be enough to cause a problem. lfs keep encouraging me to buy the hannas...they are sooo expensive! that is at the top of the list, tho. my lfs is only as good as the sample i give him, and the info i can share. if i don't do the testing, he is left trying to guess his way through it. i am really lucky that he is so patient with me and has taken a sincere interest in seeing me succeed.

not to mention, when i'm having issues i take up alot of his time and don't spend a lot of money, and when things are going well i tend to buy a lot more stuff! =D

 

[phenom5]

I don't think you need to test twice daily. But daily is needed to dial in your dosing. Dose, then test 24 hours later, then dose, then test 24 hours later, then adjust the dosage based on what your test are telling you, then test 24 hours later...and so on.

The Hanna checkers are nice, but you can get Salifert Ca & Alk test kits for a little less then one Hanna checker. The Salifert kits are accurate, easy to read, and once you get the hang of them they're pretty quick and easy to use.

 

[Palting]

Sudden changes in parameters, alk, cal. mag, even phos, can stress out coral. I suspect it's these fluctuations that are causing your coral to act loopy, rather than the actual numbers themselves.

Lets start off by making sure you know where your parameters need to be. Here's a link: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php As to a specific number rather than a range, I try to keep mine in the safe middle zone, with alk at 8dKH, calcium at 440, and mag at 1320. For corals, particularly stonies, IMO salinity must be 1.026. What is your salinity?

Next is dosing. 2 part supplements like bionic are designed to be given in equal amounts alk and cal. There is a lot of calcium in saltwater, and it takes a big loss to see the change, which also means it will take a big dose to correct it. OTOH, alk is more sensitive and is easier to monitor. So, the good practice in dosing is get your parameters in the right range first, then dose equal amounts of alk and calcium with a balanced Alk/cal formula like bionic or BRS 2 part, using alk as your testing parameter. Here is another link :http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

Magnesium is very important. You cannot, repeat CANNOT, get stable alk and calcium numbers if your magnesium is not right.

Make small changes in your parameters. Do not correct, say, the alk from 7.0 to 8.0 in one day. Dose frequently in small doses, whether it is to correct or maintain a number.

Get good test kits. I'm sure the gas going to and from your LFS costs more money. Get Salifert or Red Sea Pro for alk, cal and mag tests. As has been suggested, test daily until you get a handle on what your dosing needs are.

Sorry for the long post. Just read through those links, and good luck!!

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

if you're doing regular partial water changes with Reef Crystals it's very likely your Mg levels are just fine HOWEVER in my opinion you should have your own ACCURATE AND RELIABLE test kits for alkalinity, calcium and magnesium. ALSO make sure that your SG is 1.025-1.026 with a RELIABLE tester such as a calibrated refractometer or a temperature corrected 16" glass float hydrometer.
These are some of the BASICS for maintaining a successful reef aquarium and there's no reason not to own them if you're serious about having a nice reef aquarium.
There's absolutely no reason to get rid of the clam. Tridacna deplete alkalinity and calcium rather quickly but if you choose a proper calcium and alkalinity supplementation scheme you'll be able to maintain all of your critters just like more experienced reefkeepers.

Just my opinion: in this size reef aquarium topoff for evap using kalkwasser (limewater) and supplement calcium and alkalinity using a liquid two part (available most reasonably at Bulk Reef Supply).
Good luck!

 

[XERXIES_333]

Hanna checkers are the one of the greatest innovations for the hobbyist in the last 10 years, as for the coast you should be able to find them for $50-$60 and after the initial purchase the refills beat any test kit on the market ranging from around $10 for the alk and you get 25 test for that, the other checkers refills are $20, But they dont have a Mg checker yet so i would go with Salifriet test for that, but i would bite the bullet and get the Hanna checkers.

 

[dinthbrgh]

palting...please don't apologise for an informative post. the briefer the answer, typically the less accurate it is...unless the answer is aiptaisia! =) i am more of an artistic type than scientific. added the link with the params to my faves so i always have it. the other link is a bit too biology driven for me. i wish someone could explain that stuff as tho i am a 5 year old. my lfs tries.

we did discuss mg, and i believe what he was explaining is that the reef crystals in my wc (5g weekly on a 29g tank) was sufficient to keep mg at an acceptable level based on what is in my tank. he hasn't felt the need to test for mg, and i trust that he would if he felt remotely that it could be part of the problem. what i don't understand is why he said to only increase the alk part of the dosing system, and not the calc. perhaps it was too techie for me, but he just said to only increase the alk dose.

finally, i agree that it is probably the fluctuations that are affecting the corals. i'm sure it didn't help that, in my nervousness at first, i was dosing randomly and not daily. i am dosing daily now. in the few hours since i shut off the phosguard, the pagoda cup looks minimally better. some polyps are starting to push out.

do have refractometer. it is properly calibrated. keep sg at 1.025-1.028 depending on evaporation level. working at keeping everything else in acceptable ranges. temp is always 80.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

we did discuss mg, and i believe what he was explaining is that the reef crystals in my wc (5g weekly on a 29g tank) was sufficient to keep mg at an acceptable level based on what is in my tank. he hasn't felt the need to test for mg, and i trust that he would if he felt remotely that it could be part of the problem. what i don't understand is why he said to only increase the alk part of the dosing system, and not the calc. perhaps it was too techie for me, but he just said to only increase the alk dose.

alkalinity is typically depleted quicker than calcium. It's just as (if not more) important to maintain alkalinity in a reef aquarium. (Oftentimes people are mostly concerned with calcium levels and not alkalinity. Big mistake!)
You can cheaply, easily quickly make your own alkalinity supplement using Randy's recipe (part one or two depending on pH in your aquarium).
Most people use recipe one which boosts pH.
Both recipes utilize Arm & Hammer BAKING SODA (sodium bicarbonate) and this is what I use in my aquarium.

 

[dinthbrgh]

thanks for the info, gary. i'll run that by my lfs guy. i think he recommended the b-ionic because it's ready to use...simpler for me. but he's all for me doing things inexpensively. i spend plenty on corals, food, and other stuff from him. besides, he isn't getting rich off me. he's got other customers he gets rich off of! he just tries to help me out.

if i'm not mistaken he has an article on scolymias in the reefkeeping magazine. just a little trivia to give him credability.

 

[phenom5]

finally, i agree that it is probably the fluctuations that are affecting the corals. i'm sure it didn't help that, in my nervousness at first, i was dosing randomly and not daily. i am dosing daily now. in the few hours since i shut off the phosguard, the pagoda cup looks minimally better. some polyps are starting to push out.

If you can, I would split your dose. Once in the morning, once at night. Not always the easiest when you are manually dosing. But doing it this way helps limiting the swings.

It's just as (if not more) important to maintain alkalinity in a reef aquarium. (Oftentimes people are mostly concerned with calcium levels and not alkalinity. Big mistake!)

Couldn't agree more. With Gary's entire post, but especially the quoted part. Noobs (myself included) tend to focus on calcium, but Alk is easily as important, if not more so in the overall health of corals.

That said...Bulk reef supply. 5gal bucket of calcium chloride make ~30gal of calcium solution for dosing. Randy's DIY 2-part is even cheaper. There are plenty of expensive aspects of this hobby, but 2-part shouldn't be one of them.

 

[reefgeezer]

What are testing salinity with? I believe the biggest mistake I ever made was measuring salinity with a swing-arm type hydrometer. I use a refractometer and calibrate with 35ppt standard solution anytime I check my tank and it doesn't read 35 ppt (~1.026).

 

[dinthbrgh]

ok, thanks. added the other link with randys recipes to my faves as well.

her's how to locate the article i mentioned, if you're intersted. it's actually in reef hobbyist magazine. good article. well written.
Check out Jeff's Article featured in the Reef Hobbyist Magazine Volume 5 Issue 1 on page 10. Click on the cover.

thanks john. i do use refractometer and it is calibrated.

 

[nynick]

If your corals and Clam is eating up more than you are putting in you might want to dose Kalk in addition to your supplements. I use Kalk for all my top off water. as do many other people, and never had a problem.

It is cheap, good and free of problems. Best reef additive ever! It also helps with Phosphates. Jus set a dripper or doser to drip it continually through out the day. Your milage will vary with how big your evaporation rate is.

 

[dinthbrgh]

ok. add learning about kalkwasser to my list. right after superbowl! thanks nynick.