Spectorman
Member
Oh, and it is not loud at all.
ATS Just to Control Phosphate?
- Thread starter reefgeezer
- Start date
reefgeezer
Active member
Thanks for the input everyone. I'd like to know if others are using an ATS to supplement carbon dosing. In particular, I am wondering if an ATS is capable of binding phosphate when there is little to no nitrate in the system.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
I have posted a version of this in several places so if you have seen this please excuse me. I went through something like this same issue.
As you know, If you are dosing vinegar, vodka or some other carbon source, you are growing bacteria and exporting that to lower your Nitrates (N) and Phosphates (P). Unfortunately, bacteria does not remove N and P in an optimal ratio for your particular tank. When N gets too low, the bacteria begins to starve and not work as well as you might like it too. It continues to keep N low and not do much for P so it begins to rise. Typically, Algae is more balanced in what it removes than bacteria.
It sounds like your tank is Nitrate limited. Algae may work great to consume the P but if not, it may be because it can't get enough N to work much better than bacteria does.
I would read up on ATS(issis) and Cheato to decide which would work best for you and try it. If the algae doesn't grow like you expected, you may need to actually add N, as silly as that sounds. There are threads that explain it in more depth, tell you how to do it and track what success others are having. Search for it if you have a problem.
As far as which is best (Cheato or ATS) I like a well designed ATS, hands down but they both work. You can by them or build them. I build one and used it for over 20 years. I never had green or yellow water. That sounds like bad harvesting technique to me but it's hard to screw up. Cheato does about the same thing, it just grows slower and has different down sides. They both mat if you don't take care but in different ways.
Going back to the carbon dosing, if you used algae and cut back or skip the dosing, you would have less problems with N limitation but if you like what you are doing and many many people do, then go for adding algae of your choice and just keep your eye open for what I mentioned above.
Hopefully everything will work out for you just fine.
As you know, If you are dosing vinegar, vodka or some other carbon source, you are growing bacteria and exporting that to lower your Nitrates (N) and Phosphates (P). Unfortunately, bacteria does not remove N and P in an optimal ratio for your particular tank. When N gets too low, the bacteria begins to starve and not work as well as you might like it too. It continues to keep N low and not do much for P so it begins to rise. Typically, Algae is more balanced in what it removes than bacteria.
It sounds like your tank is Nitrate limited. Algae may work great to consume the P but if not, it may be because it can't get enough N to work much better than bacteria does.
I would read up on ATS(issis) and Cheato to decide which would work best for you and try it. If the algae doesn't grow like you expected, you may need to actually add N, as silly as that sounds. There are threads that explain it in more depth, tell you how to do it and track what success others are having. Search for it if you have a problem.
As far as which is best (Cheato or ATS) I like a well designed ATS, hands down but they both work. You can by them or build them. I build one and used it for over 20 years. I never had green or yellow water. That sounds like bad harvesting technique to me but it's hard to screw up. Cheato does about the same thing, it just grows slower and has different down sides. They both mat if you don't take care but in different ways.
Going back to the carbon dosing, if you used algae and cut back or skip the dosing, you would have less problems with N limitation but if you like what you are doing and many many people do, then go for adding algae of your choice and just keep your eye open for what I mentioned above.
Hopefully everything will work out for you just fine.
wildman926
Active member
I initially thought this as well, but my results after harvesting the ATS show otherwise. I wait to clean them when flow is blocked, which is about every two weeks. Meanwhile, the chaeto grows.
outy
New member
They both do not work for everyone.
And in the end were talking about what is cost effective. If I have to run a 175w MH to grow chaeto because the water is to clean, its not cost effective.
I cannot grow chaeto because my water is to clean, and my chaeto always dies after rapid growth when I first put it in.
But my ATS grows GHA with 30W or less.
How big is your system and what type of ATS do you have? If chaeto grows the ATS is not working properly.
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
You are right.
I’m not.
I add the following just for fun.
Yes a dump bucket styled ATS is the very best means of nutrient control in the world …without question.
…..for Me! ….not for many others!
I want to over feed and not have it removed right away so I don’t skim …but skimming is great.
I like the soothing sound of the splash every 30 seconds or so ….my wife is not so thrilled with it.
I have a one sided screen so it is big …but I have lots of room.
I could use bubbles to get quiet turbulence …but I like the look of the splash, deep into the tank.
I like the dump bucket because I can be less strict on harvesting schedule and not get dye of from clumping ….but 3-D scrubbers are also more flexible in that area …and many are quiet.
The dump bucket is just cool …but hard the build …and you sure can’t by them.
Cheato is eeeeeasy to install and use …but it may be a gateway drug that leads to a proper ATS.
It my trap food ….but did I say it was easy?
Now back to my original though, there is only so much food going into the system. Only so much N and P becomes available. Bacteria take some of it and is skimmed away. The rest is left over for GFO, cheato, ATS, lanthanum or others. Your choice. Any of them can help with phosphates and they all work for some people. None of them work well for all.
My assertion is that they compete for the same resources so if you keep that in mine, it may help you diagnose problems if they arise. You just have to find what speaks to your hart and skill set.
To give my two cents worth of an answer to the originally posted question, Yes and ATS may help remove phosphates in a carbon dosing environment.
wildman926
Active member
90g, and 150g. Floyd R Turbo's L2. There are NO absolutes in this hobby.....
The ATS is designed to out-compete other types of algae in the system. That is how it works. If it is not doing that, it is not properly designed. So there are no absolutes in reefing, but I bet you need water. How are the dried fish doing???
wildman926
Active member
If you really knew what you are talking about, you would have said, "ATS's are designed to remove excess nutrients and unwanted chemicals in the system".
Not all algae consume the same unwanted chemicals and excess nutrients. Why limit yourself?
karimwassef
Active member
I do all four
GFO
GAC
ATS
Chaeto
Why choose when you can do all of them?
In my case, a failure in any one export control can usually be offset by the others kicking in to pick up the slack. I don't even have to control it, nature does it for me.
It's not like these are very expensive mechanisms to buy or maintain.
I do have a massive skimmer and I feed a LOT
The one thing I don't do is what almost everyone else ABSOLUTELY thinks they should do... Mechanical filtration. No nets, no sponges, no foam, no socks... Nothing that acts as a trap in the main flow. Either it's exporting or it's flowing...
GFO
GAC
ATS
Chaeto
Why choose when you can do all of them?
In my case, a failure in any one export control can usually be offset by the others kicking in to pick up the slack. I don't even have to control it, nature does it for me.
It's not like these are very expensive mechanisms to buy or maintain.
I do have a massive skimmer and I feed a LOT
The one thing I don't do is what almost everyone else ABSOLUTELY thinks they should do... Mechanical filtration. No nets, no sponges, no foam, no socks... Nothing that acts as a trap in the main flow. Either it's exporting or it's flowing...
outy
New member
Tried it all in 25 years of reefing, and I'm set up the same way. No socks.
I cant grow chaeto after a month, it withers after sucking up all my phos and nit.
I only feed a cube a day if lucky
So after 25 years one thing I know I can grow with best is algae :fish2:
wildman926
Active member
The GFO and GAC are an additional costs, so just an ATS and Chaeto works for me. It is natural method as well.
I tried the no mechanical filtration, but when something lodged in my impeller of my skimmer, I put back the sponge filter.
The beauty of this hobby, is there are many ways to do it...
I don't like dodge either....lol
karimwassef
Active member
I have multiple pump backups exactly because of that.
I feed A LOT... so, GFO is valuable to me. I also believe that GAC removes chemicals that algae can't address.
Here's my daily: I feed
4 fullsize sheets of Nori, folded and packed with 1 teaspoon of Prime Reef Flake "suprises"
3 cubes of Cyclopese
3 cubes of PEMysis
3 heaping "microspoons" of Reef-Roids
3 heaping "microspoons" of Reef-Chilli
1 full dropper of selcom
1 full dropper of Garlic Xtreme
20ml of Restor
20ml of Phyto
1 teaspon of Life Spectrum 1mm sinking pellets
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CA4FC6C3-54AF-4913-AE01-B0B034731B3F_zpsegaleucw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CA4FC6C3-54AF-4913-AE01-B0B034731B3F_zpsegaleucw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CA4FC6C3-54AF-4913-AE01-B0B034731B3F_zpsegaleucw.jpg"/></a>
You feed all that to a 380gal mixed reef with a dozen tangs and more... and here's what you end up with in ATS:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg"/></a>
That's about 48" x 3" of hair algae ... every 2-3 weeks
and a secondary tank (50gal rubbermaid container) of chaeto export...
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/D7D4AF62-B342-4555-B156-41F55CEF090C_zpszwx6pz0x.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/D7D4AF62-B342-4555-B156-41F55CEF090C_zpszwx6pz0x.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo D7D4AF62-B342-4555-B156-41F55CEF090C_zpszwx6pz0x.jpg"/></a>
...
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/E87FCADA-D6CF-4E49-9E3C-E1EB4D6909F5_zpsxaf5pgv3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/E87FCADA-D6CF-4E49-9E3C-E1EB4D6909F5_zpsxaf5pgv3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo E87FCADA-D6CF-4E49-9E3C-E1EB4D6909F5_zpsxaf5pgv3.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/35A8B4BF-18A2-4228-8A34-380A91A5A2A6_zpsjualdcil.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/35A8B4BF-18A2-4228-8A34-380A91A5A2A6_zpsjualdcil.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 35A8B4BF-18A2-4228-8A34-380A91A5A2A6_zpsjualdcil.jpg"/></a>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nP1j3sg3FTk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
I feed A LOT... so, GFO is valuable to me. I also believe that GAC removes chemicals that algae can't address.
Here's my daily: I feed
4 fullsize sheets of Nori, folded and packed with 1 teaspoon of Prime Reef Flake "suprises"
3 cubes of Cyclopese
3 cubes of PEMysis
3 heaping "microspoons" of Reef-Roids
3 heaping "microspoons" of Reef-Chilli
1 full dropper of selcom
1 full dropper of Garlic Xtreme
20ml of Restor
20ml of Phyto
1 teaspon of Life Spectrum 1mm sinking pellets
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CA4FC6C3-54AF-4913-AE01-B0B034731B3F_zpsegaleucw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CA4FC6C3-54AF-4913-AE01-B0B034731B3F_zpsegaleucw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CA4FC6C3-54AF-4913-AE01-B0B034731B3F_zpsegaleucw.jpg"/></a>
You feed all that to a 380gal mixed reef with a dozen tangs and more... and here's what you end up with in ATS:
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg"/></a>
That's about 48" x 3" of hair algae ... every 2-3 weeks
and a secondary tank (50gal rubbermaid container) of chaeto export...
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/D7D4AF62-B342-4555-B156-41F55CEF090C_zpszwx6pz0x.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/D7D4AF62-B342-4555-B156-41F55CEF090C_zpszwx6pz0x.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo D7D4AF62-B342-4555-B156-41F55CEF090C_zpszwx6pz0x.jpg"/></a>
...
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/E87FCADA-D6CF-4E49-9E3C-E1EB4D6909F5_zpsxaf5pgv3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/E87FCADA-D6CF-4E49-9E3C-E1EB4D6909F5_zpsxaf5pgv3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo E87FCADA-D6CF-4E49-9E3C-E1EB4D6909F5_zpsxaf5pgv3.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/35A8B4BF-18A2-4228-8A34-380A91A5A2A6_zpsjualdcil.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/35A8B4BF-18A2-4228-8A34-380A91A5A2A6_zpsjualdcil.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 35A8B4BF-18A2-4228-8A34-380A91A5A2A6_zpsjualdcil.jpg"/></a>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nP1j3sg3FTk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
karimwassef
Active member
Thanks. I think of it as a body... You can starve it so it's skinny but weak.. Or you can feed it tons and exercise it daily... Or you can overfeed it and not exercise it.
Exercise = export for a reef.
Exercise = export for a reef.
reefgeezer
Active member
How' bout a picture of your ATS... I feed heavily also, but have a much smaller system with a somewhat lower bioload per volume, but I like the idea od multiple export paths. I haven't used mechanical filtration for a very long time either. You have a very nice tank. As hard as I try, mine's nothing like yours.
karimwassef
Active member
I cheat with my ATS. I use my overflow weir box and the residual MH light already shining in the area with the very high flow and air/water interaction (ideal ATS conditions)
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/64E1E951-5B01-4B23-B889-7D5C77D15DF3_zpsmnhkq5nd.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/64E1E951-5B01-4B23-B889-7D5C77D15DF3_zpsmnhkq5nd.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 64E1E951-5B01-4B23-B889-7D5C77D15DF3_zpsmnhkq5nd.jpg"/></a>
Here's my chaeto mass after export (you can see the eggcrate). I actually keep it more for pod population than for export.
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CEC41CCE-8931-40C5-8E82-29C957A064C7_zps0v3ffahy.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CEC41CCE-8931-40C5-8E82-29C957A064C7_zps0v3ffahy.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CEC41CCE-8931-40C5-8E82-29C957A064C7_zps0v3ffahy.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9ECCCF5B-8265-48D0-9C0F-406190F50BC6_zps1vpsfuym.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/64E1E951-5B01-4B23-B889-7D5C77D15DF3_zpsmnhkq5nd.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/64E1E951-5B01-4B23-B889-7D5C77D15DF3_zpsmnhkq5nd.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 64E1E951-5B01-4B23-B889-7D5C77D15DF3_zpsmnhkq5nd.jpg"/></a>
Here's my chaeto mass after export (you can see the eggcrate). I actually keep it more for pod population than for export.
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CEC41CCE-8931-40C5-8E82-29C957A064C7_zps0v3ffahy.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CEC41CCE-8931-40C5-8E82-29C957A064C7_zps0v3ffahy.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CEC41CCE-8931-40C5-8E82-29C957A064C7_zps0v3ffahy.jpg"/></a>
