ATS vs. Carbon Dosing in 180 SPS Tank

[Buzz1329]

I was once a very enthusiastic ATS user. But then pumps on my ATS crapped out 3x, frying month's worth of growth on screen each time. Not the fault of the ATS. But extremely frustrating and disruptive of tank parameters. Something screwy going on with pumps (Rios and Jabaos) or electricals "“ IMO, most likely the pumps.

So I tried carbon dosing instead. First vinegar and then NOPOX. NO3 and PO4 dropped to 0 NO3 and .043 PO4. Only downside seems to be growth of bacteria snot in sump. I manually remove as much as possible 2x times a week with brine shrimp net and turkey baster, but it is still seems to be growing. Since removing ATS, SRO3000INT skimmer has gone into overdrive and needs to be dumped/cleaned 3x a week. Stopped GFO and now use reactor with cup of GAC changed weekly.

Now I'm thinking that an EHEIM 1262 (dialed back with ball valve) would likely be a reliable pump for ATS. So, should I go back to my Turbo ATS? If so, why? And if I do so, what would you recommend in terms of converting from carbon dosing to ATS?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Reef Frog]

Personally I'd go with an Ehiem or Tunze pump. Budget pumps have their place but not in critical roles IMO. Most ATSs require modestly sized pumps so buying the best really isn't all that painful. GL.

 

[mikluha]

I use both. ATS and vodka dosing in my 120g tank.
ATS is not as efficient as it would be without skimmer but it works well (clean it about once in 10-15 days). Interestingly, my ATS started to producing green algae right away without black/slimy/etc stages. I think it's because my nitrates/phosphates were undetectable when ATS was put in service

I get bacteria snot when I overfeed vodka. I don't pay attention - nobody complains. I have large cleaning crew (60+ hermits and 30+ snails) and they take care of it.

In addition, I still run DSB (got it when I bought my sump), mangroves, and DIY sulfur-denitrator. Kinda free-market. Whoever is most efficient gets the benefits. So I can feed fish/corals as many times as I want - morning/day/night/throw pinch of flakes anytime. Blackworms/mysis/flakes/soy milk for corals/DIY Acropower - it's feels so great not to worry about nitrate/phosphate anymore

 

[Buzz1329]

Thanks Reef Frog and mikluha.

The Eheim "universal" pump (the 1262, which when it arrives turns out to be the 3400 -- but no real difference between the two as far as I can tell) is pretty indestructible IME. ("Compact" Eheims are worthless IME, but that's another story). Only real issue is that it comes with 5/8" and 1" outputs and ATS feed is 3/4". Luckily, I had 1" tubing and a 1" to 3/4" PVC connector so I was ready to roll. Started it back up at 3 pm today after thoroughly scraping/brushing screen and rinsing under tap water) and will see what happens. Wish there was some way to set up alarm so that if pump craps out while lights are on, I could turn off the lights and save the crop of algae. But with the Eheim 1262/3400, I feel pretty comfortable that if I clean it once a month I should be fine.

mikluha, I will take your advice and continue carbon dosing as ATS gets back up to speed. Once/if screen on ATS fills in, I will reduce amount of NOPOX/vinegar dosing accordingly.

Mike

 

[mikedawg8898]

Thanks Reef Frog and mikluha.

The Eheim "universal" pump (the 1262, which when it arrives turns out to be the 3400 -- but no real difference between the two as far as I can tell) is pretty indestructible IME. ("Compact" Eheims are worthless IME, but that's another story). Only real issue is that it comes with 5/8" and 1" outputs and ATS feed is 3/4". Luckily, I had 1" tubing and a 1" to 3/4" PVC connector so I was ready to roll. Started it back up at 3 pm today after thoroughly scraping/brushing screen and rinsing under tap water) and will see what happens. Wish there was some way to set up alarm so that if pump craps out while lights are on, I could turn off the lights and save the crop of algae. But with the Eheim 1262/3400, I feel pretty comfortable that if I clean it once a month I should be fine.

mikluha, I will take your advice and continue carbon dosing as ATS gets back up to speed. Once/if screen on ATS fills in, I will reduce amount of NOPOX/vinegar dosing accordingly.

Mike

Check out the king of DIY's video on a 12 dollar auto top off system, it's not really that much about ATO systems, it's more of what you can do with a float switch, I would suggest watching the video and then put a float switch in the section your pump is in and put it to where when the water gets to a certain level because of the pump failing, it will turn the lights off

 

[AZRippster]

After migrating from a 180G to a 450G last November, we struggled through the cyano and then GHA outbreaks. Initially I used carbon dosing which helped get the nitrates down. I was also using GFO. After the cyano was gone, the GHA started in and became frustrating. Once in awhile the cyano would come back so I implemented a sulfur denitrator. With that I could drive nitrates to an undetectable level, but the phosphates remained and so did GHA. On July 28th I installed an ATS and since then have not looked back. GHA was gone within 2 weeks and I can control nitrates and phosphates where I want them, if at all. No more GFO and even GAC unless I feel I need it after fragging. I do still run a Life Reef 36" venturi skimmer that continues to support Ozonization 4 times per day and removal of waste. I like the essentially "all natural" aspect of an ATS. The Eheim pumps are rock solid as are Mag Drive. I have a Mag Drive pushing a manifold I tap the ATS into.

 

[Reef Frog]

If you put the ATS back on line, I would definitely go with a quality pump like Ehiem or Tunze. You might want to place the pump right under a filter sock to prevent or delay any debris accumulation that may foul the pump.

Or possibly feed the ATS through a manifold off your main return line, as it's pretty easy to spot a dead main return pump right away. Also, if you have a controller it may be able to report a bad pump on an ATS before damage is done.

 

[Buzz1329]

After migrating from a 180G to a 450G last November, we struggled through the cyano and then GHA outbreaks. Initially I used carbon dosing which helped get the nitrates down. I was also using GFO. After the cyano was gone, the GHA started in and became frustrating. Once in awhile the cyano would come back so I implemented a sulfur denitrator. With that I could drive nitrates to an undetectable level, but the phosphates remained and so did GHA. On July 28th I installed an ATS and since then have not looked back. GHA was gone within 2 weeks and I can control nitrates and phosphates where I want them, if at all. No more GFO and even GAC unless I feel I need it after fragging. I do still run a Life Reef 36" venturi skimmer that continues to support Ozonization 4 times per day and removal of waste. I like the essentially "all natural" aspect of an ATS. The Eheim pumps are rock solid as are Mag Drive. I have a Mag Drive pushing a manifold I tap the ATS into.

Cool ATS!

I've got NO3 at well below 1 ppm and PO4 at .031 with carbon dosing, but restarted Turbo ATS with Eheim 3400 on 12/3. I'm feeding heavy. Netting out a substantial amount of pink bacteria snot from sump every am, and siphoning out a lot of pink bacteria scuz from rockwork in DT during weekly water changes. ATS screen is slowly turning brown/green. Ideally, I'd like ATS (with SRO3000INT skimmer, which continues to kick butt) to replace carbon dosing as destroyer of NO3 and PO4, but until I'm getting thick mats of GHA on ATS screens every week, I'll continue carbon dosing, heavy feedings, and deal with bacteria scuzz.

Mike

 

[AZRippster]

Thanks!

I'm a firm, firm believer in ATS. All our struggles with cyano and various forms of algae all came to an end once we got the ATS online and broken in. I now clean it about every 10 to 14 or so days. The black box it sits in I built to house the water return to the tank and to have a simple, removable, and disposable pre-filter. We use those "Pinky Pads" that used to be part of the DLS rolls in wet-drys. Yeah, that dates me. Anyway, I'm sure you'll be happy once your ATS is back up and rolling along.

 

[stephenhall1987]

I have a 380g reef. Currently dosing Vodka. PO4 always tests 0.01 (as low as my scale goes). NO3 varies between 0 and 20. When I first started carbon dosing, I kept upping the dose to try to get NO3 to read 0. Never got a consistent 0 reading, but did get a thick growth of that bacterial sludge. I've cut back the dose (probably 1/4 of what I was dosing), and now don't have hardly any sludge.

I am in the process of building a diy ats via calculations from this:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.do?rid=b0tmj6d91ce368ee542aba6b2b670ae00412b

When I get it installed, I plan on running both ats and carbon dosing until ats is producing well. Then phasing out the vodka. I'm hoping it will be strong enough for me to shut off my skimmer as well.

Buzz1329
Please keep us updated on your experience.

 

[AZRippster]

I would like to decommission our skimmer as well, but it provides more than just skimming. It brings in fresh air from outside that aids in pH stability and also allows for ozonization. Even with the ATS that's kicking butt, it pulls quite a bit of junk out still, so I'm going to keep it humming along.

 

[wildman926]

i would like to decommission our skimmer as well, but it provides more than just skimming. It brings in fresh air from outside that aids in ph stability and also allows for ozonization. Even with the ats that's kicking butt, it pulls quite a bit of junk out still, so i'm going to keep it humming along.

x2

 

[Buzz1329]

Ok, so I started Turbo ATS back up on 12/3, after keeping screen dry in plastic zip lock bag for a few weeks and then thoroughly scrubbing it under tap water. (Can you think of any better way to kill useful algae on screen?) Seven hours of light nightly. Dialed back Eheim 3400 feeding ATS. After first week, nothing. After second week, screen had faint brown stain. After 3rd week, screen colored dark brown. Today, there are patches of bright green algae on screen so looks like I'm heading in right direction.

Meanwhile I've been dosing minimum amount of NOPOX (7 ml for 180 gallon tank) plus 10-20 ml of vinegar daily, which has driven PO4 and NO3 below NSW levels. But carbon dosing requires that I remove red/pink blobs of bacteria snot from sump daily and from DT weekly. Protein skimmer continues to produce dark brown skimmate. No GFO. Cup of GAC in reactor changed weekly.

Feeding daily: 1/2 sheet of Nori, pinch of Blue Zoo (a "blend of 13 different [dry] foods"), and 1.5 cubes of frozen foods (mostly Ocean Nutrition blends plus mysis).

BUT, cyano, green, and brown algae are coming back in this tank.

I am now thinking that I will gradually reduce carbon dosing in hopes that ATS will take off. Meanwhile, I will continue to remove as much algae from tank as possible during weekly water changes.

Does this make sense? Any comments welcome.

Mike

 

[Baccara]

Backing off gradually on the carbon dosing seems like a good idea until you find the happy medium with your ats

 

[wildman926]

When I stopped carbon dosing, i.e. biopellets, I stopped cold turkey. I just let the ATS do it's thing.

 

[Buzz1329]

Thanks for all the advice.

The cyano + green/brown hair algae continue to proliferate.

My new plan is to remove ATS to roughneck 18 gal bucket filled with enough water from DT so that bottom outflow from ATS is at surface of water level. I'll add Eheim heater and use two 2" x 4" planks to support ATS above bucket. I'll obviously run ATS lights 8 hours a night. I'll also feed bucket to provide nutrients for ATS. Any suggestions re what/how much to feed?

Meanwhile, I'll be doing another Algae Fix Marine regimen in DT. It worked 6 months ago without damaging coral, inverts, or fish. Took about a month to rid the tank of nuisance algae. Last time, the ATS was not functioning at anywhere near full throttle when I moved it back to sump of DT.

And when it was getting back up to speed, the #**@#%% pumps (Rio and Jebao -- what was I thinking?) died cooking algae on screen. Happened 3x, and I gave up on ATS. Went with carbon dosing which reduced PO4 and NO3 to below NSW but nuisance algae grew back in DT anyway.

This time my goal is to reintroduce fully functioning ATS after Algae Fix wipes out algae in DT. I have a reliable pump now (Eheim 3400) feeding ATS so do not anticipate any further pump failures.

My maim concern is keeping ATS "fed" during month long AFM regimen. So any advice on what to feed ATS screen thriving would be appreciated.

Also feel free to comment on my overall plan, including flaws you see.

IOW, any feedback appreciated.

Happy New Year to anyone reading this.

Mike

 

[AZRippster]

When I implemented our ATS, we had quite a bit of cyano and GHA as well. Fairly quickly those disappeared. You may not have to do the chemical treatment. I think I would give the ATS a shot for at least a month. We saw a dramatic decrease in GHA within 10 days and the cyano was magically gone. We've been running with the ATS since July and haven't had any GHA except for a small amount up around the sump return Loc-Lines. For some reason, none of our normal GHA eating fish go up there. Once in awhile I just pull a few very small clumps off and all is good.

 

[herring_fish]

Redundancy Can Become a Bad Thing

Redundancy Can Become a Bad Thing

I started with a skimmer and bio balls but moved to a well designed ATS many years ago. Then I pulled out the bio and skimmer. Hair algae in the display tank went to zero even though I kept upping the feeding (at least half cup per day).

"¦so I love, love, love the ATS (your results may vary ).

That being said, I just want to note that carbon or lanthanum dosing, skimming, GFO and most any ATS will work in competition with each other. If you over export waste, you may get Nitrate (N) or Phosphate (P) limited so watch out for either going to zero (N or P) while the other begins to rise. That may mean that normal functions in the tank are out of balance and therefore impaired.

If N and P both won't come down or actually go up, then you're probably not exporting enough so increase waste removal.

On the other hand, if you do get limited "¦back off on redundancy "¦pick one to be the primary exporter "¦give it some time and see if that helps.

 

[wildman926]

IME, I use my ats and corals as a gauge as to how much to feed to keep corals/fish happy. My ats will grow HA according to how much N/P are in the system, or how much I feed. If I do not get the growth in the ATS, I just up the feeding. Corals/Fish are happiest when I have moderate growth in the ATS.

Skimmer output dropped somewhat when I deployed the ATS, but no where near to where I would consider removing it.

ATS and Skimmers are sized according to tank.

 

[pledosophy]

After switching to Carbon dosing I never looked back. I used to have a 100g's worth of refugium. Now I have a liter bottle.

Can't beat it!