Attempt to color up SPS under LED

[Posseidon]

I think that there is a lot of interesting informations about keeping SPS corals under the LEDs:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2315500
A specialy - how white led works, why they are not needed - and why so many aquarists with "old type' LED fixtures with white leds - use them on 30-40%.
Less white=better results.
It so easy - but still many manufacturers produce "perfect and nice looking lights" - but for oue "eyes" - not for corals.

Thanks Przemek for sharing your knowledge and the link. Inline with our discussions.

 

[Posseidon]

Well, Whites are made by mixture of Red + Green + Blue. Higher intensity of Blue gives higher Kelvin Whites. There are many White LEDs that are available in different Kelvin ratings. Are you referring to LED whites in general? There are 20000K White LEDs too.

My main lights are made with Bridgelux LEDs. The whites and blues are good.

However, I recently made one supplementary LED bar with 20000K and UV, using non-branded LED diodes. The so-called 20000K whites are way too yellow than a genuine 20000K white. Such DIY projects with non-reputed LEDs are a hit or miss kinda thing I guess. They have good probability of throwing garbage spectrums on the corals.

So, proper research is important.

 

[MHG]

There was a lot of reading here so I skimmed through it fast. Here has been my experience with LED's and the SPS loosing color.


I find that brown, as in a darker rust color is from a lack of light. while loosing color or turning a tannish white is from starving or low nutrients.

I went through a year and a half of losing about 10% of my frags and watching the remaining 90% get lighter and lighter within 2 weeks of getting them. Adding supplements like pohls xtra and coral vitalizer helped some frags very fast but there are many, many successful tanks without adding a bunch of junk. finally I decided to give up on nutrient control and just started feeding heavy. 7 times a day on my auto feeder. Finally I saw a difference. Within 7 months 90% colored back up and growth took off...

I was doing to good I needed a frag tank. This one was metal halide/t5...I watched frags do the same thing. new system had no nutrients.... started feeding heavy and wouldn't ya know? Just like the DT, things colored back up.


As far as a difference between the PAR from LED's and MH. IMO it is a myth. Again just my opinion. all I know is now with higher nitrates in both my tanks, if I take a frag from 400 PAR under my LED DT and place it in 400 PAR in the MH frag tank, I don't loose color...


There are a ton of guys with Royal Blues and Cool Whites and great colorful growing corals. Sure the full spectrum is nice. But focus on PAR and Nutrients and BE PATIENT... Like wait a year for results. What we screw up in a week, takes months for nature to correct. Or at least that was what happened in my tank...

 

[asid61]

Well, Whites are made by mixture of Red + Green + Blue. Higher intensity of Blue gives higher Kelvin Whites. There are many White LEDs that are available in different Kelvin ratings. Are you referring to LED whites in general? There are 20000K White LEDs too.

My main lights are made with Bridgelux LEDs. The whites and blues are good.

However, I recently made one supplementary LED bar with 20000K and UV, using non-branded LED diodes. The so-called 20000K whites are way too yellow than a genuine 20000K white. Such DIY projects with non-reputed LEDs are a hit or miss kinda thing I guess. They have good probability of throwing garbage spectrums on the corals.

So, proper research is important.

Bridgelux usually means no-name brand. So you have two no-name leds, and they seem to be working for you.

 

[Aqualund]

There are 395 nm UV lights out there as well. I would suggest mixing a few in. Otherwise, you are covering most of the spectrum.

As for me, I went a little more extreme and incorporated a few leds (that are available) from every spectrum to ensure that I can promote proper emission spectra of fluorescence. Each channel individually controlled...and by this manner I can do away with the cool whites and achieve a white look with color combinations instead!

 

[Aqualund]

Well, Whites are made by mixture of Red + Green + Blue. Higher intensity of Blue gives higher Kelvin Whites. There are many White LEDs that are available in different Kelvin ratings. Are you referring to LED whites in general? There are 20000K White LEDs too.

My main lights are made with Bridgelux LEDs. The whites and blues are good.

However, I recently made one supplementary LED bar with 20000K and UV, using non-branded LED diodes. The so-called 20000K whites are way too yellow than a genuine 20000K white. Such DIY projects with non-reputed LEDs are a hit or miss kinda thing I guess. They have good probability of throwing garbage spectrums on the corals.

So, proper research is important.

what exactly is a garbage spectrum?

If you're talking about the light wave that leaves the lens of an led after interacting with a phosphor coating and thus is a different spectrum than it's origin (blue), then I argue that light is still light.

In order for it to achieve a kelvin rating(20,000k), it must be the result of adding all the spectra together. Additionally, since it is a diode it has very little heat and has nearly undetectable light in the 700nm+ region, and since the led in question (450nm coated with yellow phosphor) cannot emit light below 400nm by function of its design....then every wavelength emitted by an led is within the visible spectrum, and since every spectrum is measured in varying quantities within the coral reef....there is no spectrum that is garbage. All are useful to some degree.

 

[bigzman]

I am tagging along as I was running 250 watt DE Phoenix MH for over two years. Switched to LED 3 months ago and starting to notice all my SPS are not looking as wonder as they did before. I have a mixed reef and all of the few lps I have are not affected by the change. But my sps is losing it red and blues. Reds and pink birds nest is doing the best but still losing color. On the local Tampa club I posted this and was advised by those that have moved to LEDs to feed more. I started a week ago on heavy feeding and so far I have had amazing PE which was not there before heavy feeding. I Also scaled back my whites to 50 percent three weeks ago and notice no difference and keeping blues (mix of 440, 460, 420) at 70 percent. So far the best improvements have been extra feeding. I was advised by a local reefer with an amazing sps tank that he had to start zeo Amino acids and coral vitamin to get color back. (He sure did get it back and then some more) One thing I did notice and wonder, is if anyone else is have the same results that I am getting. which is great growth. Almost the same as my old MH. Just missing the nice blues greens and purple and even the red on my caps. I was advised that may be adding 400 / 420 would helpful. Thanks for opening this thread as I have seen nice tanks here running LEDs with great sps colors for a long time.

 

[triggreef]

if the LED are not optimal, then why run them at all instead of more of a full spectrum source?

There is no doubt in my mind that MH are the easier, more reliable way. That said there are a lot of people having great results with led's. Out of the (guestimate) 2 dozen or so sps types in my tank, only 2 acros fading a bit from when I bought them isnt bad in my book. I actually think its less to do with the leds than nutrients but time will tell.

My reasons for going with leds is simple...
A- less electric bill.
B- cooler temps (my house is frequently over 82 degrees during the day time in the summer with a/c on, and my tank never went over 81 degrees). And
C- I don't want to replace my lights every year or two.

Bridgelux usually means no-name brand. So you have two no-name leds, and they seem to be working for you.

I don't know what this means really. Bridgelux is referred to all over, what I used to build mine, and what reefbreeders are made with. Reefbreeders I've only heard good things about and it is what I recommended to my brother, and I love them on his tank. When my DIY stuff craps out, thats what I plan to go with.

 

[jeffkeith_us]

I know that Steve bought a LED pendant just before he left Rancho Cucamonga, CA and moved to Texas. It was the first one that Marine Depot had offered; that was about two years ago just before I left the US. Someone should call him at Reef Farmers also I know he uses 250w 6500K XM's. Another thing is that he isn't feeding the coral in order to get coloration, he uses his living sponge filtration system and the coral and the sponges feed each other.

 

[Posseidon]

what exactly is a garbage spectrum?

I think they mean the wavelengths of light from the visible spectrum that is disliked or unusable by certain corals.

 

[Posseidon]

Bridgelux usually means no-name brand. So you have two no-name leds, and they seem to be working for you.

Many of the branded LED fixtures use LED's from manufacturers like CREE, BRIDGELUX etc.
It's the knowledge of how to put them together that matters. Because there seems to be a lot of science behind it to get it right.

 

[CHSUB]

fyi......here is an interesting fact i learned at MACNA. two par meters were used with LEDs. The popular hobby meter and another one that cost about $4000.00. the speaker showed that the cheaper meter was almost worthless when used with LEDs missing some readings from 40 to 100%. So anything you think you know about par and LEDs is false; unless you're using the $4000.00 meter.

 

[power boat jim]

fyi......here is an interesting fact i learned at MACNA. two par meters were used with LEDs. The popular hobby meter and another one that cost about $4000.00. the speaker showed that the cheaper meter was almost worthless when used with LEDs missing some readings from 40 to 100%. So anything you think you know about par and LEDs is false; unless you're using the $4000.00 meter.

Who did the speaker represent and which hobby meter was it? Also explain what readings were off from 40 to 100 percent. To say all PAR data is useless unless taken with this guys meter seems a bit self serving.

 

[jda]

what exactly is a garbage spectrum?

Most white LEDs put out spikes in yellow, green and red that are too high and can damage some deeper water corals where the natural depth of the water would filter those out. Some corals can reflect it, but it looks different to our eyes than it would if they reflected less, but some cannot and they can hate you and die. MH and Flourescent have those spikes too, but at a more appropriate level that have been fine tuned over the years. Even though lots of people don't know that this is the reason, you see lots of tanks with whites turned way down getting better results. Przemek lays this out way better than I ever could in the thread that he linked.

 

[CHSUB]

Who did the speaker represent and which hobby meter was it? Also explain what readings were off from 40 to 100 percent. To say all PAR data is useless unless taken with this guys meter seems a bit self serving.

dana riddle....he wasn't selling anything or trying to make you buy anything, just reporting his findings. he only spent 5 minutes talking about PAR meters in a hour long talk. he is studing chlorophyll levels in corals under different PAR levels under both natural and LED light. he is using very expensive equipment and noted that hobby grade PAR meters are missing 40 to 100% of the light from LEDs in some spectrums.

 

[Posseidon]

dana riddle....he wasn't selling anything or trying to make you buy anything, just reporting his findings. he only spent 5 minutes talking about PAR meters in a hour long talk. he is studing chlorophyll levels in corals under different PAR levels under both natural and LED light. he is using very expensive equipment and noted that hobby grade PAR meters are missing 40 to 100% of the light from LEDs in some spectrums.

Your statements are a little confusing. Please clarify.

In one post, you said "...missing some readings from 40-100%".
And then in another post, you say "...missing 40-100% of the lights from LEDs in some spectrum".

So, is the overall PAR reading off by 40-100% (which is not possible) or only specific spectrum readings are off by 40-100%?

If its specific spectrum, how much portion of the full spectrum are you referring to?

For example, if only specific group of wavelength, say 10% of the overall spectrum is off by 60%, that's still 94% accurate. That would be feasible for hobby use.

Most of the test kits used in this hobby are not professional lab grade, even the water parameter testers. They are reasonably accurate to help us with the hobby without robbing a bank.

So, are these hobby grade PAR Meters really worthless or just less accurate?

 

[CHSUB]

And then in another post, you say "...missing 40-100% of the lights from LEDs in some spectrum".

this is the accurate statement. however, he felt the hobby meter was useless as it missed 100% of light in some spectrums. it was the apogee? iirc he did say to correct the meter by 20% or more, so maybe it has some valve with LEDs, just not his study?

 

[power boat jim]

this is the accurate statement. however, he felt the hobby meter was useless as it missed 100% of light in some spectrums. it was the apogee? iirc he did say to correct the meter by 20% or more, so maybe it has some valve with LEDs, just not his study?

There is still a problem with his study IMHO, I used the same PAR meter to measure my PAR under MH and LEDs. The LEDs had a slightly higher par then the halides at every depth. Is he telling me that my LEDs are stronger then the halides even when missing some or all of the spectrums? OR do these meters not measure the same spectrums under MH? I find this strange because a photon is a photon, it doesnt matter what the source is they are all the same.

 

[Posseidon]

Oops. Problemo.

I have an external power supply for my LED fixture. And I think the transformer got damaged. My main lights don't turn on. I guess my SPS will have to hang in there for two days until I fix it.

Can they handle two days of darkness? I have another single strip bar that I could use as a stand by. But its got 27x1W RGB LEDs. A lot less PAR. The combination throws white but yellowish in color.

I'm just worried that this yellowish light may do more harm than good.

Since there's no light, I dosed the tank water today with DD's SPS food.

 

[Chronicj7]

"Undetectable" levels of p04 and n03 aren't advised. Keep phosphate around 0.01-0.03 and you will be set. Nitrate will be fine below 10ppm. I went from using AI Sol's back to t5 because I lost a lot of color in some of my SPS.

I second that LED's makes keeping SPS a bit harder. Its just one more thing you need to fine tune. Overskim and feed often. I run a zeovit tank so I can't comment on adding anything other than the ZEO products, ca, alk, mg. Obviously swings in any of those will prevent coloring as well.