Bacterial Diversity Methods

[NyReefNoob]

ever think too much thought is put into our tanks, i havent gotten to go see pauls tank { hopefully will go collecting with him one year } i personally have 2 systems running, 1 sh tank and my reef tank, i do switch water from each tank back and forth, take some from sh system and put into reef and reversal as well,as well as once a month i switch out a rock from each tank. always wonder if it would help or not. not that i can say ive noticed anything. both systems are ran completely different, sh system has had 2 water changes in a yr, but is loaded with macro algea's, reef has alot as well in sump. i use to worry because i havent added anything to the sh tank since sh were added back in sept, now my reef is a revolving door of fish and corals, anyone ever tried putting a small amount of yeast in their tank ? might sound kinda dumb but alot of bacteria strains in yeast, and no i havent tried it yet but has been something ive been curious about

 

[philbo32]

ever think too much thought is put into our tanks, i havent gotten to go see pauls tank { hopefully will go collecting with him one year } i personally have 2 systems running, 1 sh tank and my reef tank, i do switch water from each tank back and forth, take some from sh system and put into reef and reversal as well,as well as once a month i switch out a rock from each tank. always wonder if it would help or not. not that i can say ive noticed anything. both systems are ran completely different, sh system has had 2 water changes in a yr, but is loaded with macro algea's, reef has alot as well in sump. i use to worry because i havent added anything to the sh tank since sh were added back in sept, now my reef is a revolving door of fish and corals, anyone ever tried putting a small amount of yeast in their tank ? might sound kinda dumb but alot of bacteria strains in yeast, and no i havent tried it yet but has been something ive been curious about

Yeast doesn't contain bacterial strains, it is a separate organism to bacteria. I did used to add a few pipettes of bakers yeast in RO to my tank but didn't really see any massive improvements in livestock although I think it would help pod populations. I feed yeast and algae to enrich artemia at work before feeding to fish fry and you do see a vast improvement in the growth rates of the fry.

 

[elegance coral]

IMO, even healthy and stable systems could get a boost from an addition of new bacteria which may possably be better at converting nitrates.

Or they could cause imbalance in the system. I remember a thread where you were talking about the "cycles" your tank seems to go through. Stony corals would do well for a while, then crash as softies took over. You talked about how your tank is always going through these "cycles". If I'm not mistaken, the thread was right here in the advanced forum.

Many older systems especially systems with DSBs lose much of their nitrate converting means forcing people to change water to lower nitrates.

Do they? Or is it much more likely that waste/detritus accumulates in DSB's and older systems in general, causing nutrient levels to climb? Anaerobic bacteria only have access to a portion of the nitrate produced by a system. As waste/detritus builds, nutrients from its decomposition builds, and the amount of nitrate that's not accessible by anaerobic bacteria builds.

I understand that there are bacteria in every part of a tank but I don't think new bacteria would have a hard time working with or replacing bacteria already there. Our guts are loaded with bacteria and we could eat something with a disease causing bacteria that can make us very ill.

But in the vast majority of cases, we get better. One of the reasons for our recovery is resident bacteria kicking the newly introduced bacterias but. If the disease causing bacteria was never introduced, we wouldn't have become ill in the first place. This is an example of one of the bad side effects of increasing biodiversity. It's not an example to support this practice.

I am sure there are many bacteria in the sea that will out compete the bacteria already present in a tank. Even though the newcomer bacteria has far less numbers, it is not like in a war where the army with the superior numbers usually wins.
On the north east coastlines of the US, under every rock used to be green crabs. They were all over the place. About 40 years ago a Japanese ship was believed to import a species of Japanese shore crab in their ballast water.
Now there are no green crabs but under every rock there are dozens of Japanses shore crabs. These crabs are the same size and have the same diet as the resident green crabs yet a few of the alien crabs took over the entire ecosystem of the eastern US.
These new comer crabs are a little faster and a little hardier than the green crabs (I have kept them for years)
I understand that bacteria are not crabs but this was done one at a time.
Could this not happen with bacteria?

I get what you're saying. I think the crabs are a good analogy, but no two species are exactly alike. It can be the subtle differences that cause catastrophic damage to established ecosystems. If the new crabs were just a little better at reproduction than the resident crabs, but both crabs fed on mud skippers, the mud skipper population could plummet. Shore birds that feed on mud skippers would not be able to feed their young, and their numbers could plummet. Situations like this can cause chain reactions with wide reaching implications. This is why scientist are freaking out over Lion fish in the caribbean, caulerpa in the Mediterranean, and pythons in the everglades.

Any time we add new species to healthy well established ecosystems, they will create changes. Even if those changes are small and short lived. These changes, or disruptions, in the local ecology are far more likely to cause problems than to be something we could call beneficial. If the system is already healthy and well established, why would we risk introducing new species when the likelihood of them being beneficial is slim to none?

Countries around the world spend unknown amounts of money fighting invasive species. They pass laws attempting to reduce the odds of new species being introduced into their ecosystems. There are good reasons for this.

 

[Paul B]

Elegance Coral, first of all, thanks for adressing all of my points.
My theories are by no means scientific fact, they are only based on my experiences.

I remember a thread where you were talking about the "cycles" your tank seems to go through. Stony corals would do well for a while, then crash as softies took over.

Yes, I talk about cycles a lot. Most people don't notice them because they may last a couple of years. I think the cycles in my tank come more from the differences in algae and nutrients in the water than bacterial populations, but I could be wrong. Sometimes, short red algae covers all the rocks in my system and it is the same stuff that covers everything in the Long Island Sound where some of my water comes from.

Or is it much more likely that waste/detritus accumulates in DSB's and older systems in general, causing nutrient levels to climb?

That could also be the case, in any event, they don't seem to last very long even though the theory is that worms will multiply forever allowing water to reach the lower more anerobic areas. If the worm theory is correct then maybe new bacteria would be beneficial.

This is an example of one of the bad side effects of increasing biodiversity. It's not an example to support this practice

Yes bad analogy, I added it to show that a different, minority of bacteria could gain a foothold. Don't forget, in our guts, the bacteria living there is suited for that envirnment. The bad bacteria in food may not be so the gut bacteria has the advantage in that case. If I had a 40 year old strain of Long Island Sound bacteria in my tank, and I introduced new bacteria from the same area, I would assume, that some of those bacteria would have a chance to re produce and overtake the existing similar bacteria.
I, of course don't know if that would be an advantage or not.

If the new crabs were just a little better at reproduction than the resident crabs,

Maybe the added bacteria from the Sound would have advantages being the Sound goes from fairly clean 40 degree water in the winter to fairly polluted 78 degree water in the summer. Our reefs are more stable than that so I think the new bacteria would have different traits, not necessarilly bad but possably so.
I know that adding anything from the sea could cause a bad reaction and as I said, my tank is not a scientific experiment, but being the years that I have been doing this implies at least that the practice could be safe and the fact that my nitrates are very low even though I run a UG filter and rarely change water also implies that adding bacteria from the sea "may" be what is causing or allowing my nitrates to remain low.
When new drugs are tested for the public I doubt they test them for that length of time, of course I know that they test them on hundreds of people, I just don't have hundreds of tanks to test. :crazy1:

 

[philbo32]

I hear what you are saying regarding your own tank but there is no way to prove that adding bacteria is doing anything in your tank because there are way too many variables which effect a reef system, and every tank is different.

Without even knowing what bacteria are in your system and what bacteria you are adding and whether the correct food source for those bacteria are there makes it near impossible to work out if it is advantagous to your system.

The only way to know whether it would be advantagous is going to take a lot of lab work and more knowledge of species to try to control all the variables and then to replicate each system many times to make is scientifically and statictically significant.

Can't believe your tank is still standing after 40 years, surely the silicone seals would have gone by now??! I know they recommend replacing the silicone after about 8-10 years in most cases.

 

[Paul B]

I hear what you are saying regarding your own tank but there is no way to prove that adding bacteria is doing anything in your tank because there are way too many variables which effect a reef system, and every tank is different

Of course thats true, my one system is in no way a scientific study, but it does prove that at least, adding bacteria "may" not be detrimental.

Can't believe your tank is still standing after 40 years, surely the silicone seals would have gone by now??!

SSSSHHHHHHHHHH

 

[capnfritz]

I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread, expert and amatuer alike, you all enhanced my understanding of my system a lot.
Greatly appreciated.

 

[Spracklcat]

What would be quite interesting is to also track some of the specific traits of each tank to identify beneficial bacterial strains that can outcompete cyano or specifically consume some of the nasties in our tanks.
Just think, a bacterial dose(s) that specifically targets flatworms, ich, etc.?

(Maybe if we can identify specific commercial viability, funding will appear?)

In other words, a parasite which infects the parasites. Possible, but most bacteria are not that specific as far as target species, so in all likelihood it would not be reef-safe.

Do any of you have a theory as to why ich does not seem to effect my tank, could bacterial additions possably have anything to do with that?

I think the constant influx of NSW bacteria, fresh, is a good thing, but I don't think it has anything to do specifically with ich. Unless you've treated every single fish before it went in your system you probably have it, but your husbandry is good and your fish are fat and happy, so their own immune systems keep it low. Fish in the ocean bear an average of 34 different species of parasites, and they aren't all dead so...

One thought is that good bacteria that normally colonizes the fish skin might be absent and this would help ich to infest the fish. If these bacteria don't really enjoy life in reef tanks, they may be lost over time, opening up for skin parasites.

Good thought, but not likely. If the normal flora of the fish disappeared you'd more likely see a ripping bacterial infection if there was a portal of entry. Cryptocaryon doesn't care whether bacteria is on the surface of the fish, it burrows beneath that first layer of epidermis anyway, so they don't live in the same habitat on the fish.

I feed yeast and algae to enrich artemia

Yup, yeast is very nutritious, but won't take over your tank because it's the wrong environment for it to thrive. There are actually relatively few fungi in marine systems compated to land or FW systems. So, the yeast are probably eaten by your corals. I doubt the fish get much because it is too tiny--but gut-loading Artemia to feed fish works. Another interesting thing--yeast have beta-glucan, which is a known immune stimulator (for us and fish), so there is that added benefit. A few grams of dry yeast into your tank isn't enough to confer that effect though.

Quote:
I understand that there are bacteria in every part of a tank but I don't think new bacteria would have a hard time working with or replacing bacteria already there. Our guts are loaded with bacteria and we could eat something with a disease causing bacteria that can make us very ill.

But in the vast majority of cases, we get better. One of the reasons for our recovery is resident bacteria kicking the newly introduced bacterias but. If the disease causing bacteria was never introduced, we wouldn't have become ill in the first place.

If this were the case we'd cure diseases by taking bacteria, not antibiotics. Normal bacteria don't fight off invading bacteria--I'll overgeneralize here, but they aren't fighting each other. Your immune system fights the pathogens. What you are thinking of is the benefit of your normal flora, the "good bacteria", just take up real estate and nutrients that the pathogens could use. In fact, the pathogenic bacteria often have a way of injecting toxins into the good bacteria, but not the other way around (cool, eh?). So as an example, if you got Salmonella, eating all the yogurt in the world won't make you get better much faster, but antibiotics and your immune system will. Then, you eat yogurt afterwards to replace the good bacteria that the anitbiotics killed off.

 

[Hurlock]

Great topic....I have been in this hobby for over 4o years and I think we are always tweaking our closed systems without totally understanding the dynamics of bacterial changes. Fortunately I have different large systems I can experiment with and monitor the results simply by water chemistry and observing the reef and health of animals.
Case in point;
I set-up a 1200 gal tank August 08 and started using Prodibio on the onset. I replaced a 600 gal with the larger tank and kept many of the same corals and rock. Never any algae problems but some diverse sponge life like I have never had before. I started dosing vodka about a year later. (simply an experiment as nitrates and phosphates were never a problem) I was still dosing weekly Prodibio with the vodka.
The tank still loo0ked great but I noticed some color changes in the SPS. Everything else was the same. Some of the SPS were brighter and more growth rates were unbelievable.
About 6 months ago I stopped the Prodibio and kept the vodka dosing.After 3 months the tank still looked great but I noticed some of the exotic spong growth I had was beginning to receed. I ran out of Prodibio and thought I would save the money and not reorder. I started using the prodibio again about a month ago and noticed recently the sponge is coming back.
As I said I am always tweaking with-out understanding exactly what is happening with the bacteria changes. For me, the look of my tank seems to lead me in the direction I need to take .

I have a 550 that I set-up the month of 911. Had a deeper sand bed , and I was never happy with the total filtration of the tank Tank always did well but never the color or sponge growth of the 1200. I never used Prodibio in the 550. After about 4 years the tank started showing signs of OTS. I nursed it along for a couple of years and thought about tearing it down and changing the sand bed debth and filtration. Always had a little nitrate and phosphate problem but no real algae problems.
I decided to try to keep the tank-up, change my bateria dynamics, and slowly remove the sand bed. This was a year and a half ago and I started dosing vodka and every month I would remove a little of the sand bed with a 10% water change. I had some unbelievable algae blooms on the sand bed but decided to keep-up the vodka dosing and slow sand bed removal. I still did not use Prodibio in this tank.
My goal was to get rid of the OTS, make the tank look alive again, totally reduce nitrates and phosphates, remove some of the sand to a 2" depth and take-out 30% of the rock with -out tearing the tank apart.
After 6 months the algae on the sand bed began to disappear and the nitrates were dropping. I slowily removed some of the rock each month and was amazed that the older rock had fused together with sponge growth and created shapes I could not have developed with even a peg rock method
Again the visual results were my overwhelming guide. Chemically the tank was responding and the bacterial growth was increasing even though I had removed almost half the sand bed and 30% of the live rock.
Today I still only dose vodka in this tank (never any Prodibio) and I started using the Vodka pellets about 3 months ago in the filtration system. This tank now looks great but does not have the sponge diversity of the 1200 gallon system even though I tried to introduce some of the sponge in the 550 from the 1200.
IMO we are always playing with bacterial diversity without understanding what is actually happening. I believe the Prodibio that I add to the 1200 gallon system introduces a bacterial source that the sponges feed on that I can not get in the 550 without Prodibio. The bio pellets in the 550 create a bacterial diversity that I do not have or can create in the 1200.
I feed the 1200 gal about three times a day which certainly affects the bacterial diversity.
I am now changing the GFO and Activated Carbon every two weeks in the 1200 gallon system to see what happens. I am getting less algae on the glass but a little less coraline color.
Hopes this helps with reefers that are fighting cyno,algae blooms, diatom outbreaks. I think we can strip the bacteria down to levels that work and maintain our systems or add bacterial stains that feed the reef and maintain life forms that years ago were impossible. Thanks

 

[orthokardia]

I ran out of Prodibio and thought I would save the money and not reorder.

I love the fact that a reefer with a 1200, 550, and >600 gal tanks still trys to save money. solidarity brother

It is interesting how great of effect the amount of sandbed removed was having. this is especially interesting as the percent of the sand bed removed would be smaller at first for the same volume removed than at the end.

 

[elegance coral]

If this were the case we'd cure diseases by taking bacteria, not antibiotics. Normal bacteria don't fight off invading bacteria--I'll overgeneralize here, but they aren't fighting each other. Your immune system fights the pathogens. What you are thinking of is the benefit of your normal flora, the "good bacteria", just take up real estate and nutrients that the pathogens could use. In fact, the pathogenic bacteria often have a way of injecting toxins into the good bacteria, but not the other way around (cool, eh?). So as an example, if you got Salmonella, eating all the yogurt in the world won't make you get better much faster, but antibiotics and your immune system will. Then, you eat yogurt afterwards to replace the good bacteria that the anitbiotics killed off.

:lol: I didn't mean to imply that bacteria put on tiny little boxing gloves and go at it.
http://www.all-creatures.org/health/beneficial.html
Quote from the link.
"The gut microflora is the name we give to this living factory, whose beneficial functions include: completing the digestion of our foods through fermentation, protecting us against disease-causing microbes........"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
Quote from link.
"preventing growth of harmful, pathogenic bacteria"

You can find link after link talking about how our resident bacteria help fight off invading bad guy bacteria. You won't find any links where our resident bacteria went Rambo on the bad guys though.:uzi: They win the battle much in the same way that bacteria in our aquariums, and pretty much every other ecosystem on the planet do. They start by being very well adapted to the physical parameters of the environment. Temperature, PH, oxygen levels....... Being efficient at utilizing the nutrients of the environment, and providing a benefit to the environment which in turn keeps them healthy (in most cases). In our guts they help by providing nutrients to us that we can use to build healthy immune systems. Once these conditions are met, the microbes can utilize available surface area and nutrients, making it difficult for invading species. Without our resident good guy bacteria, we would be left vulnerable to invasive bad guy bacteria. The rules of engagement may be different than a boxing match, but the resident bacteria typically still kick the invaders but.

Disclaimer.
I am not a microbiologist.
As if that's not overwhelmingly obvious with my use of terms like "kick but", "good guy bacteria", and "bad guy bacteria". :hmm3::lol:

 

[Paul B]

I am not a microbiologist.

I am an electrician, does that count?

 

[teesquare]

Hurlock;

You just gained my vote for Post of the Day!

Thanks for your observation based research. We often forget that the sterility of pure science omits the real world experience of being a "gardener".

And - when I read your post, I very much thought of how I observe, and tweak things in my own aquaria. it is by observation FIRST....All else is theory, and marketing

I do find it erksome that we have many "experts" in this hobby that can espouse theory, and science - but cannot produce pictures of their own tank that is exemplary of the results they claim will follow if one adheres to their advice.

I would love to see pics of your tanks. I am sure they will not dissapoint!

T

 

[Paul B]

I do find it erksome that we have many "experts" in this hobby that can espouse theory, and science - but cannot produce pictures of their own tank that is exemplary of the results they claim will follow if one adheres to their advice.

While I am by no means an expert, no one else is either. This is a hobby, and the defination of hobby is past time or a thing of leisure. There are no doctorates for a hobby. A marine biologist does not count as a fish tank expert because a fish tank of any type is an artificial envirnment kept in our case, as a means of enjoyment. We may learn something along the way, but it is basically a hobby.
I have a cousin who is a marine biology professor. For that title he had to SCUBA dive exactly once for about 30 minutes. He has never kept a fish tank and has no idea how to. He can name every worm that he sees a picture of in a book, but I doubt that would help as an aquarist.
There are no schools for this hobby. We do have experts like Randy who can tell you all about the chemical aspects of an aquarium and researchers, biologists and bacterialogists who know about their fields which do undoubtably "help" with the scientific processes of an aquarium but a Reef Tank "expert".
Never heard of one. They are all self proclaimed.
This hobby is a combination, of a chemist, biologist, bacterialogist, electrician, plumber and DIYer.
I myself am amazed by all of the knowledge on here, but no one person knows it all. :reading:

As for tank pictures, my tank pictures have been on here ad nausium.
It is no where near the nicest looking tank on here, but it is just the way I like it. Also I, in no way try to push my advice on anyone. The proof is that no one uses a UG filter but me.


By the way, this is a great thread and if it seems like we are all getting along, we are not. We are all secretly flaming each other through PMs and putting curses and hexes on everyone on here.
Just last night Randy did a drive by tomato throwing at my house. :lol2::wavehand:

 

[teesquare]

We agree so much on the subject of "experts" Paul - that it is scary! In my closing on 30 years now in the hobby - the one thing I know for sure is this:

Every time we get a question answered (by research, or experience) the answer gives birth to at least 5 more questions!

But that is just part of the fun of this hobby.
And - your tank is looking great Paul!
T

 

[Paul B]

Thank God I built a mojano zapper so I don't have any more of those things. But I kind of like them.

 

[teesquare]

Mojano Zapper? Did you toss a hair dryer in the tank Paul???
Wha-chu-talkin'-bout Willis? Tell me about the mojano zapper. I prefer a .38 caliber:hmm4:

 

[Paul B]

No
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1808040

 

[teesquare]

I LIKE IT!!!!!!

And - and any potential small amount of copper released should be easily dealt with via some carbon.

Looks like fun too Paul!

Thanks,
T

 

[elegance coral]

I am an electrician, does that count?

Well, it puts you one step ahead of me. At least you're a master in one of the areas associated with the hobby.