Bacterial Diversity Methods

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

... Did I get that right?

As a starting point ... yes. :thumbsup:

Another advantage of dosing commercial bacterial products is, that other pathogene bacterias will be suppressed by the beneficial bacterias over the time.

From a theoretical perspective, I agree ... and there's no question that many anecdotal correlations supporting this perspective have been posted. However, it's perhaps worth pointing out that the literature suggests that this is not always the case ... particularly with regard to the potential impact on the bacterial guilds that inhabit a coral's mucus layer and the other microorganisms within a coral's holobiont.

Holobiont (coral) - a collective term referring to the totality of a coral animal, its endosymbiotic zooxanthellae, and the associated community of microorganisms.
( http://www.experiencefestival.com/holobiont )



For those who can get access to it, this one is perhaps worth the read ...

Teplitski & Kim Ritchie (2009) How feasible is the biological control of coral diseases?
Trends in Ecology & Evolution.Volume 24, Issue 7, July 2009, Pages 378-385

I think influencing the environment in a closed system to enhance bacterial diversity is a better place to start than introducing new microbes ...

From my twisted & crazed perspective, this is entirely correct. The rush to start bacteria dosing before any underlying water column dissolved nutrient issues have been addressed (by lowering available N & P) has always struck me as a husbandry blunder. It is no accident that all of the major carbon dosing proprietary product line manufacturers recommend altering a system's water column chemistry before, or in tandem with, the application of their products. The only tweak to your statement that I would respectfully suggest is, '... influencing the environment in a closed system to enhance bacterial metabolic behavior is a better place to start than introducing new microbes" ...

... but maybe that's actually the same thing. :lol:


If they're willing to risk temporary brain injury from hard science overexposure, folks interested in why addressing the nutrient water column chemistry issues before applying bacterial culture products to their systems might want to take a look at this one (... for those not willing to risk the brain injury, what this article documents is the potential for bacteria populations to directly influence the growth rates of algae):

Danger et al (2007) Bacteria can control stoichiometry and nutrient limitation of phytoplankton.
Functional Ecology, Volume 21, Issue 2, Pages 202-210
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/117987987/HTMLSTART?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0




Less technology, more biology ... indeed. :bounce1:






JMO ... HTH

 

[Agathos]

Time by time I recommand the dosing of bacterias, because many chemical and physical factors could influence the bacterial biodiversity in a tank and so these products prevent a depletion of bacterial variety.

But unless the products contain bacteria suitable to live in the conditions offered in our tanks they will not be a permanent addition; rather they will just cause a temporary boost in tank metabolism before they die and release nitrogenous compounds and phosphate.

So are the commercial products mentioned in this thread actually based on bacteria that will succeed in colonizing our tanks, or do they just contain easy to culture, spore-forming, non-pathogenic bacteria? I have looked at the patent that presumably covers the Prodibio products, and I saw nothing that suggested this product contains carefully selected bacteria that are found on actual reefs.

Personally, I strive to maintain a system that closely resembles what is found in nature. I try to reproduce the different lighting, water chemistry and physical conditions that are found at reefs. Hence, I need a microbial ecosystem that works under these conditions and produces the same metabolic compounds that are produced on reefs. Adding just any bacteria willy-nilly will not comprise the microbial community that I am looking for, in the best case they will function as an ecosystem but use a different set of substrates and release a different set of products which are alien to the fish and corals I maintain; in best case my livestock will accept this without any problems, in the worst case they, or some of them, will die.

Again, this brings me back to the question of what these products actually contain and whether they are actually isolated from natural reefs. I am fairly confident that the products don't contain all the bacteria that are necessary to build the bacterial ecosystem I want, because it would be impossible to manufacture a product that does. My ecosystem contains hundreds of different bacterial species and strain, in the right proportion. This is impossible to commercialize manufacture and package. The only way to get this is to actually use fresh live rock (or mud, or water, or livestock) that are hosts to these bacterial communities.

Prodibio, and presumably other related products, contain a few (8-10?) bacteria selected because they are easy to manufacture, easy to package without die-off (spore-forming), non-pathogenic and exhibits some base metabolic power that is needed in our tanks. And hence I believe that could do good during start-ups and after antibiotic treatment in our tanks, to restore some metabolic ability, but I am not certain these could be permanent residents in our tanks and I am certain that these together will never form the bacterial ecosystem that I seek.

 

[Pmoss]

I think I just earned a B.S reading this entire thing..... and I still know nothing in the grand scheme of it!

 

[mhaith]

But unless the products contain bacteria suitable to live in the conditions offered in our tanks they will not be a permanent addition; rather they will just cause a temporary boost in tank metabolism before they die and release nitrogenous compounds and phosphate.

Are these products designed as a permanent addition or are they meant as a 'sponge' that are to be skimmed out of the water column prior to the release of N & P? Note the regimin calls for consistent reapplication.

 

[Agathos]

Are these products designed as a permanent addition or are they meant as a 'sponge' that are to be skimmed out of the water column prior to the release of N & P? Note the regimin calls for consistent reapplication.

I believe the Prodibio product at least is designed to give a transient boost to the tank's ability to process waste, and I know that people here discuss using them as a permanent solution for replenishing diversity in their tanks.

 

[tmz]

I think the fact that you consistently dose the microbes in the commercial product indicates that they won't sustain colonies in adequate numbers in your reef. Otherwise why keep dosing them?

 

[prop-frags]

fascinating question... I wonder the same thing!
Is it simply a fact that our closed systems are missing a naturally occurring source of these "beneficial bacterial sources"?

 

[tmz]

fascinating question... I wonder the same thing!
Is it simply a fact that our closed systems are missing a naturally occurring source of these "beneficial bacterial sources"?

Or the strains naturally ocurring in the tank dominate them, or they are cultured in conditions that vary significantly from a reef tank or something else entirely. Hard to say. But it's clear they need to be boosted while those that grow in your tank don't and will sort things out based on the conditions in th specific aquarium.
Varying the carbon source(ethanol, acetic acid, absorbic acid ,etc) rather than importing bacteria not indigenous to the aquarium can ,in my opinion , impact the diversity . Various strains have an advantage with different organic carbon sources and may dominate but not to the point of a monoculture . So some variability in the carbon source should promote a variety of strains. Wether or not that diversity is beneficial is questionable. For example using some vinegar in lieu of some vodka but still dosing both helped rid my system of patchy of cyano. This was a tip from Randy Farley .Presumably the bacteria favoring the acetate were able to outcompete the cyanobacteria better than the bacteria supported by ethanol. On the other hand , substituting some sugar caused problems for certain corals( scolimia and lobophylia). Perhaps the fructose/ glucose has some adverse effect on these coral's symbiont bacteria.
The vodka a vinegar method has worked very well for me in keeping NO3 and PO4 low with virtually no nuisance algae and no dicernible ill effects for about 18 months now.

 

[DJREEF]

But unless the products contain bacteria suitable to live in the conditions offered in our tanks they will not be a permanent addition; rather they will just cause a temporary boost in tank metabolism before they die and release nitrogenous compounds and phosphate.

So are the commercial products mentioned in this thread actually based on bacteria that will succeed in colonizing our tanks, or do they just contain easy to culture, spore-forming, non-pathogenic bacteria? I have looked at the patent that presumably covers the Prodibio products, and I saw nothing that suggested this product contains carefully selected bacteria that are found on actual reefs.

Personally, I strive to maintain a system that closely resembles what is found in nature. I try to reproduce the different lighting, water chemistry and physical conditions that are found at reefs. Hence, I need a microbial ecosystem that works under these conditions and produces the same metabolic compounds that are produced on reefs. Adding just any bacteria willy-nilly will not comprise the microbial community that I am looking for, in the best case they will function as an ecosystem but use a different set of substrates and release a different set of products which are alien to the fish and corals I maintain; in best case my livestock will accept this without any problems, in the worst case they, or some of them, will die.

Again, this brings me back to the question of what these products actually contain and whether they are actually isolated from natural reefs. I am fairly confident that the products don't contain all the bacteria that are necessary to build the bacterial ecosystem I want, because it would be impossible to manufacture a product that does. My ecosystem contains hundreds of different bacterial species and strain, in the right proportion. This is impossible to commercialize manufacture and package. The only way to get this is to actually use fresh live rock (or mud, or water, or livestock) that are hosts to these bacterial communities.

Prodibio, and presumably other related products, contain a few (8-10?) bacteria selected because they are easy to manufacture, easy to package without die-off (spore-forming), non-pathogenic and exhibits some base metabolic power that is needed in our tanks. And hence I believe that could do good during start-ups and after antibiotic treatment in our tanks, to restore some metabolic ability, but I am not certain these could be permanent residents in our tanks and I am certain that these together will never form the bacterial ecosystem that I seek.

willy-nilly?

What scientific dictionary did you find that one in? I'm afraid I'm going to need a definition.

DJ

 

[tmz]

DJ, I tend to agree since all of these products when used to boost bacterial activity require continual dosing which would not be needed if they were viable in the aquarium long term. Many of the bacterial concoctions being used along with carbon dosing were initially marketed for cycling speed ups.

 

[Paul B]

The only way to get this is to actually use fresh live rock (or mud, or water, or livestock) that are hosts to these bacterial communities.

Yep, thats what I do

 

[DJREEF]

DJ, I tend to agree since all of these products when used to boost bacterial activity require continual dosing which would not be needed if they were viable in the aquarium long term. Many of the bacterial concoctions being used along with carbon dosing were initially marketed for cycling speed ups.

No, I agree completely. I was just making a funny.

willy-nilly :lmao:

DJ

 

[saltyair]

I know this is an old thread - but it is a fantastic read. These types of subjects are the reasons I come to this site

 

[Timfish]

Yes, the role of microbes in reef ecosystems is a fascinating discussion. For more current info on the corals holobiont and the role of microbes in the health of corals "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" by Dr. Forest Rohwer and Dr. Merry Youle is an excellent place to start. It's fairly inexpensive at around $20, a surprisingly enjoyable read and is very informative with excellent list of research publications for further reading.

 

[acabgd]

I just wanted to revive this old thread and maybe get some others to read it. Some great info which is still very much hot topic. Hopefully we can also get some new information about bacterial diversity in our tanks.